What is lemmy.world doing defederating before hexbear even federates? lemmy.world/instances
This is what it took to defederate from exploding-heads after being federated with them since the start of lemmy.world
https://lemmy.world/post/747912?scrollToComments=true
What evidence do you have of hexbear breaking the lemmy or citizen code of conduct?
Has the criteria for defederation changed?
Hexbear is one of the largest and most active lemmy instances:
Compared to lemmy.ml:
Compared to lemm.ee:
and lemmy.world:
We should probably have released a statement before going over into action and blocking them. But an official statement on this is coming asap.
thanks for the response look forward to reading the official statement
Gonna be a laugh
Yeah I don’t understand why lemmy.world would defederate from that instance. They like anti war, anti colonialism, pro human rights pro LGBTQ and yes SOCIALIST
We’re inundated with right wing propaganda and there is so little left wing information out there that punching down on this tiny thought group seems, I dunno, to say we’d prefer the ‘offical’ take on everything
I don’t really know the reason, but it would be cool if that screen included a reason for defederation alongside the name of every defederated instance.
That said, wasn’t Hexbear using a Lemmy fork that split off really early and then added lots of features of their own, making it particularly incompatible with the rest of the Fediverse? I read somewhere that federating with Hexbear was not possible at the moment and that it’s unclear whether it will ever be possible.
Edit: small rephrasing
They’ve been working really hard to bring it back in line with regular Lemmy. They have some developers on their side!
The fork was a while back now, it moved back to regular lemmy these days after a lot of work in order to make it ready for federation.
They are starting federation soon: https://www.hexbear.net/post/280770
imo there should always be an explanation for every defederation. It should be a requirement.
I think eventually there may be too many to explain them all.
But if I recall isn’t is possible to provide a comment for every de-federated instance that can be looked up? i swear I’ve seen it before.
Why would it be hard to explain each one? The explanation could just be a sentence like “full of fascists” or “promoting hate” or “known to brigade other instances with trolls” and that is all that is needed since users of the instance can switch if they don’t like it.
Most defederations are blocking tiny dead instances to avoid bot spam. It’d be easy to make an explanation in most cases!
If it could just be a sentence, then it should be whatever site I saw that shows why instances were de-federated
I really wish I could remember what site it was though.
There is one for exploding-heads and explaining why beehaw.org blocked lemmy.world but lemmy.world didn’t block an instance that blocked them.
The last two large instance defederation events regarding lemmy.world were mentioned so i’m just asking what the reasoning is for hexbear.net
This instance hasn’t defederated from lemmygrad, which is by far much more of a hardline community when it comes to ideological position. Hexbear is softer than lemmygrad, its members are a mixture of ideologies of the left - democratic-socialists, anarchists and communists. It makes no sense to defederate from Hexbear before lemmygrad.
In terms of hatespeech and marginalised people it is by far the strongest and most iron-fisted instance on the lemmyverse. Having no-tolerance policy to it that goes well beyond that of anywhere else.
It’s the only instance on lemmyverse that enforces visible pronouns, without cowardly forcing people to put it in hidden profile pages. If I recall correctly the last poll that was taken showed nearly 30% of its users are trans? Maybe 20%? I can’t remember.
Absolutely hilarious that half the fediverse is preemptively running scared of hexbear (with no real reason), and we’re worried about the 'grad being too ML for them.
It’s literally just anti-socialism. I have no other explanation for it.
The fediverse has anti-social personality disorder 😁
Capitalism is so normalized it’s like the air we don’t realize we’re breathing. You get lefty instances pointing out how freaking insane it is especially with global warming, and libs lose their minds
There is a specter haunting lemmy
Replace with lemmy or w/e
It’s us, we’re the spoopy ghost!
No fuckin’ shit
may I offer you this trophy for excellence in commentary: 🏆
Could it have something to do with their post announcing intent to federate trying to both-sides the Russian invasion of Ukraine? https://www.hexbear.net/post/280770 (not even getting into the comments there)
Personally I’d be cool with defederation from lemmygrad too, for the same reason.
Could it have something to do with their post announcing intent to federate trying to both-sides the Russian invasion of Ukraine? https://www.hexbear.net/post/280770 (not even getting into the comments there).
I don’t see how that’s relevant to the hexbear defederation. Lemmygrad takes a stronger stance on the SMO in general, we’re still federated.
Personally I’d be cool with defederation from lemmygrad too, for the same reason.
So what?
SMO
Get that Kremlin propaganda BS out of here.
The second sentence is the response to your first sentence.
Idk which sentences you’re referring to here, honestly.
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also lemmy.ml the admin owners are just as woke as lemmygrad and hexbear like ive said in other comments if lemmy.world is building a safespace against the woke lemmy instances that’s their right as admins but users deserve to know so they can make an educated instance choice.
Anyone who uses the word woke can be disregarded.
Anyone who uses the word tankie can be disregarded.
Every leftist should be in jail.
Anyone that uses woke like that is just outing themselves as having more toes than braincells
you are an unhinged maoist with no basis in reality
What’s “woke” exactly about tankies? They’re just the far left version of far right fascism. They just have apologia for a different set of dictatorial oligarchies.
a different set of dictatorial oligarchies.
That describes my home country pretty well. Of course, I’m talking about the American United States.
Do you seriously not see a difference between Russia and China’s governments versus the United States?
Heck, South Korea and Japan have their own conservative shitheads in power problems as well, but they are still fundamentally democracies like the United States, whereas Russia and China are not.
The United States never was a democracy. Nowhere in the US constitution are citizens guaranteed a democracy or even a conditional right to vote.
I don’t feel like I will have any say in our elections next year, even as a citizen with the right to vote. Why should minorities wait in hours-long lines instead of working just to pick between Biden and Trump? Are the Democrats really going to help the working class this time instead of the corporations who fund them or will they just defer to the Republicans like during the Obama years when they had a supermajority?
I would argue that the policy of democratic centralism in China is much more of a democracy, where citizens can have a say in the actual policies of the country.
I don’t really mind lemmygrad users. They’re often pretty tankie, but I don’t see much trolling from them. They state their opinion about China/Russia and frequently get downvoted, but I haven’t seen them explicitly try to be disruptive to communities/people they don’t like.
I’ve been called a tankie but I never diss anyone, I like to engage in dialogue. Heck I majored in philosophy so it’s kind of my jam. It’s a pity to punch left though, especially when we’re soo buried in right wing media and thought these days.
Yeah saying lemmygrad is worse is some new kind of whataboutism lol
Isn’t Hexbear the ex-ChapoTrapHouse subreddit that started their own sub with blackjack and hookers?
I.e. they created (and, importantly, modified) their own Lemmy instance. And, supposedly, they’re working to fix what they broke, so they can rejoin with the larger fediverse without losing their content?
So before we wax paranoid about the intentions of lemmyworld admins, shouldn’t we consider that this might just be a temporary measure to prevent technical issues while they bring their fixes into production?
Let’s just wait until LW admins make their announcement before we pass judgement. I fully agree there is no political reason to defederate from them. I don’t know if their community is problematic but everything I’ve heard would suggest otherwise. And I do not know the timeframe or technical details of their supposed plan to refederate. So again, while I agree with you, I think perhaps it is a bit early for speeches.
CTH was kind of a problematic sub (quite separate from the claimed “don’t be mean to slaveholders” reason for their banning), so I’m not really opposed to not welcoming a mirror of a sub known for brigades and trolling other communities with open arms. Maybe their new administration/moderation/community is better, but lemmy.world can always federate after they’ve demonstrated that elsewhere.
That won’t happen and you know it. Once this is established there will never be any movement on it. Your position just functionally means it’ll always be defederated.
Eh, so be it. CTH made its own bed and in the thread talking about federating users are demonstrating why people should be skeptical of the value of federating with a troll-prone instance. The mods of CTH back in the day also sometimes asked their users to behave themselves, it didn’t really work. And since their admins have explicitly said they won’t police trolling elsewhere, it’s really nothing more than a passing suggestion.
In an ideal world, lemmy.world waits and sees if they’re really committed to keeping their shit on local. In a non-ideal world never federating with instances extremely likely to troll is also a pretty good choice.
Just ban the individuals that do end up being a problem it’s not fucking hard. Christ. Lemmyverse is fucking tiny I moderate bigger individual subreddits than lemmy has registered total users, with fewer mods. Handling the load from a few problem individuals is a non-issue.
Alternately make non-troll leftists join a non-troll instance if they want to just go out into the wider Fediverse without the stigma. Once they federate they won’t have to be on the CTH-successor instance, they’re choosing to be there. Like I said in my other reply to you, I don’t find the lemmygrad users nearly as trollish as CTH was. It’s not the ideology that’s the problem, it’s the trolling, and they’re pre-announcing they won’t do anything to curb trolling by their users.
CTH wasn’t just a sub that happened to have some users who also trolled, they frequently organized and bragged about trolling and brigading there. And while mods need to be ready to ban individual trolls, it’s also a volunteer activity and not dealing with a rotating cast of trolls or massive brigades could be worth shutting out some posters who wouldn’t be a problem themselves. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable stance to say “wait and see if it’s a problem”, but I also don’t think it’s an unreasonable stance to say “we know what’s likely going to happen, we’re not robots who have to pretend we were born yesterday”.
Stop calling it a troll instance ffs. It’s been here for 3 fucking years and as of like one week ago represents 25% of all content ever posted from a lemmy platform. It has a culture and community that exists for far more than that and is far more established and unique than a bunch of redditors that are mad at reddit and can’t stop posting about reddit instead of actually making this place somewhere unique and fucking interesting with its own cultural stamp and reasons to be here.
What you’re doing is just slander and it’s going to make me very hostile very fucking soon. You are throwing insults at not just me but at thousands of people that I like very very much.
Defederation isn’t going to help trolling, when they can just make users on whatever instance they want to troll. If anything, federation will help fight trolling, since people are less likely to make throwaway accounts if they don’t need to, although idk if it’d be a noticable impact.
In any case, defederation won’t stop troll brigades.
This is the same argument about banning on Reddit, but as a former mod, my experience is that very few people will actually go through the effort to spin up an alt to keep trolling. A handful will (we had one person who put a note in their calendar to send a “mean” modmail every month for a weirdly long time), but most are just lazy bored posters who have fun messing with people they don’t like, and if they can’t conveniently browse their targets for opportunities, they’ll just go do something else they find fun rather than go through the effort. Despite accounts being basically free and meaningless, banning trolls was unexpectedly effective.
lemmy.world can always federate after they’ve demonstrated that elsewhere
Pretty funny how you immediately abandoned this bit. Why not just be honest?
I didn’t abandon it. If they wait and see and hexbear’s users do keep the dirtbag shit to local, then they should. I just won’t really care that much if they don’t.
yeah if lemmy.world wants to make a safe space and defederate from these woke servers they need to defederate from lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml then be upfront about it, without an official reasoning speculation is all we can do
Woke now means, in rightwing gibberish, anything you disagree with.
woke means agreeing with whatever is the most progressive/leftist thing currently popular in the west, tankies literally do all the same things as wokes
So instead of making any effort to explain why you think the things progressives/leftists support are bad, you just call it “woke” and accuse them of being “tankies” without actually contributing anything meaningful to the conversation.
there is no discussion to be had, lemmy.world is making a safe space for conversations to be had without woke instances like hexbear.net, lemmygrad.ml, and lemmy.ml just hoping the admins can commit to this ideology and not back down like reddit.
If that was their intent then why defederate from hexbear but not lemmygrad or lemmy.ml?
i think that the admins did not know, but with this post we can show them how each one of those instances are examples of the woke internet that reddit was
Lmao not the wording I’d use but I agree in spirit.
I think they’re trying to show how tankie is being used just like woke lol
I think so too, it’s just a bit muddled.
I think they’re not a native English speaker lol
Ya I agree. Harmless enough. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I fell for the bait at first but going back and reading their comments, ita actually hilarious.
Nothins more woke than Karl Marx.
Who’s Karl Marx?
I think it’s two separate tankies on Lemmygrad, @WhatWouldKarlDo@lemmygrad.ml and @MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml
Now I wish I would have went with a Marx themed user name instead of just the pfp lol.
Truuuue
lol the lemmy.ml admin is a self admitted marxist block them too, lemmy.world as a safe space against the woke lemmy instances is perfect. First reddit went woke now we can have a large space without that.
you seem confused
Anti-woke people unironically crying about wanting a safe space is just so deliciously ironic.
Exactly what is is. I was banned from the entire instance for asking about action against an openly hostile fascist but it turns out they agree with that shit.
whatever if lemmy is making a policial instance that is their decision better to block woke lemmy instances so they don’t brigade the discussions here.
Oh look the fascists have come out to support the fascists by blocking literally any opposing viewpoint by any means necessary.
Fucking shocker.
Have you ever considered your shit might not be that good if so much of a whiff of an alternative turns your people away from your shtick? Of course you have that’s why you’re all fucking scrambling to defederate from anything left of “slavery was actually super cool guys I swear” DeSantis garbage
what? how is lemmy.world blocking woke instances meaning i support DeSantis. I’m not even american
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They’re defending Hexbear and lemmy.ml by calling them woke. And is proud of being woke.
Woke isn’t a word that belongs to fascists.
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Not sure if this is the reason but hexbear’s metrics tend to trip bot activity safety nets. So it may not be voluntary.
The Hexbear thread on federation: https://www.hexbear.net/post/280770 – read it yourself.
To me it reads like a plan to increase their reach with preventive instructions on how to avoid being ‘influenced’ by outsiders’ opinions.
My guesstimation is that it is a disinformation machine based on useful idiots.
Hexbear has existed on lemmy for 3 years. It’s just a socialist instance, originally it was /r/chapotraphouse on reddit until Spez banned it for its userbase saying things like “slaveowners should be killed” (because he is a prepper who has said he will own slaves after the collapse).
Chapotraphouse is a socialist podcast, it was also the #1 highest donated thing on Patreon for a good while. These days it’s #2.
Who the hell wants to own, manage and be responsible for a human? Hell I can barely manage looking after a cat!
I don’t imagine they intend to do so responsibly
Just ask a parent.
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These days I’m not sure how much they’ve dropped off in popularity or not. A lot of people recommend /r/TrueAnon or /r/TheDeprogram, I hear CitationsNeeded mentioned quite often as well. If you’re looking for more leftist pods with varying styles/seriousness. Pretty much all of them crossover with Hexbear and the former userbase of the CTH sub.
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This was after it was banned from reddit?
Hexbear? Yes after the ban a lifeboat discord was set up, then a week or so later the site Chapo.Chat was born after rushed dev work. It later rebranded to Hexbear because various socialist groups didn’t want to work with a site associated with the chapo podcast for a variety of minor mostly unimportant reasons, things like believing they’re grifters just seeking money or w/e.
Yeah, this shithole should be defederated for sure.
From reading that thread it is not just a socialist instance.
They are instructing their members on how to relate to others, how to react to outsiders comments in their communities, and how to protect themselves from outsiders opinions. To me that sounds like cult level brainwashing techniques.
Another word that comes to mind is brigading.
No they’re not lmao.
It’s literally just “be nice to people when visiting other instances, don’t behave like a dirtbag leftist unless you’re actually on Hexbear”. Because the culture of Hexbear is… Dirtbag left. Making sure that the userbase doesn’t behave that way off Hexbear is pretty important. Hexbear users are lovely most of the time but get vicious with each other and are prone to extremely hostile fighting over topics they disagree on, this would be a massive shock to most normal people off-Hexbear. They’re just trying to mitigate that.
It’s literally just “be nice to people when visiting other instances, don’t behave like a dirtbag leftist unless you’re actually on Hexbear”.
Doing this will cause people to think that folks on Hexbear aren’t evil tankies. And that’s exactly how they get you. They act like normal, rational, mature adults with generally friendly fun-loving attitudes and… that’s fucking it, man. Game over. The Putinistas will have won.
Putinistas
Please don’t give the libs new words.
Too late, I’m putting that in my back pocket to disseminate at the monthly gathering.
Yeah makes me remember that Nazi bar history.
Chapo Traphouse listeners aren’t tankies. Sure, Lemmygrad users are. But we’re fans of Bernie Sanders and not fans of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc. I considered creating an account there when I learned that it was full of former r/chapotraphouse users, but opted for my nerdy side when choosing my instance as that’s been a part of me longer than my political side.
Edit to add that hexbear appears to be offline so I can’t access the above link for context. If something is published there that goes against my post, it’s because I couldn’t verify what that link contained.
Thanks for offering your perspective. Maybe I’m too cynical. Or maybe I’m reading to much into the Russia-Ukraine-Nato thing.
In any case, at current information, I can both accept the defederation, or just teaching people that they can choose and block specific users and communities.
ok then block their news, politics communities problem solved hopefully we can get an answer from the admins soon. I’m fine if they want to use the admin power to decide who the lemmy.world users can talk to the only thing that can stop woke instances is strong and decisive leadership.
Lmao what? They are telling their users to be nice to others and not break the rules of other instances
Maybe I’m misunderstanding all the Russia-Ukraine-NATO section.
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Please,
discussing a complex geopolitical situation
Is not
telling their users to be nice to others and not break the rules of other instances
You are not being consistent.
Also, an admin detailing how to think about a complex geopolitical situation is not discussing.
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I show you the picture of the statement:
They are too scared to show the power of the lemmy.world and to stop the federation with woke, i hope they would say how the western globalist agenda is a blight upon the worker, but sadly hexbear are woke tankies like lemmygrad and lemmy
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do you want hexbear users to flood .world threads with pig poop balls? that’s what the thread is saying not to do lol
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When the US annexed Hawai’i?
If haven’t looked at hexbear but I do remember seeing Chapo Trap House on Reddit. It was basically a liberal shitposting sub, a left wing, self-aware version of The Donald. I think it got banned due to too many memes involving guillotines. Most of that stuff was intended as humor, I am pretty sure.
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all wokeism is a cult
OH NO, WOKE?!
Stay asleep then, bud.
People who cry about wokeism being a cult will unironically attend weekly gathering in which they chant after a robbed figure and pretend to eat zombie flesh. The lack of self awareness is astounding.
You should read up what woke is historically, so maybe you don’t have to believe the “new bad woke” the far right trumpets all over the place.
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tankies = wokeism to the final consideration of the ideology
@communitylinkfixer@lemmings.world translate link for my app pls?
They’re not federated yet, you just gotta open it in your browser.
I’ve read this post and all the comments. It is clear their intention is too cause as much trouble as possible for other instances. What purpose does it serve to let them do it until everyone gets tired of it and then defederate? Might as well get ahead of it and never start.
yeah i did read it, literally the admin is telling the users to follow instance and community rules. Woke twists the reality into whatever the tankie wants it to be so blocking lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml is what lemmy.world should do if it wants to block these disinformation machines.
Thanks for the answer but I can only understand your first sentence. After that I have no clue about what you mean .
They use “woke” unironically, so it’s not like they had anything meaningful to say in the first place.
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Huh, I never looked at the instance statistics next to each other. Neat.
I read that Hexbear federating post and… Idk, seems all fine except for the very explicit stance on the Russian Invasion of Ukraine (especially regarding Donbas). Not exactly a popular stance.
None the less, the only way to avoid echo chambers is to federate broadly; probably the main reason lemmygrad remains federated. Hexbear personally gives me a headache, but I’d like to see why the largest instance wants to avoid the exchange of ideas. (I bet it’s bot related).
There’s a post on hexbear explicitly about creating bots to brigade other instances, money’s on that being a part of it
No there isn’t, provide proof. I look at every single post and can’t recall a single one about making bots to brigade.
That seems like a lot of comments per user. What gives?
Hexbear is a firehose of leftist shitposting.
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I am confused, your headline is about one thing, but your post about another.
Please specify.
The image is from lemmy.world/instances in the blocked instances section:
I am asking why lemmy.world added hexbear.net to the blocked instances list before hexbear.net and lemmy.world every federated?
maybe put “This is what it took to defederate from exploding-heads after being federated with them since the start of lemmy.world” before the screenshot of the post, as right now it seems confusing.
thank you for your advice i changed the post to reflect that
Does anyone know if this is not just some sort of preliminary step before federating between the two?
Ah… it’s so deliciously cynically amusing to watch tankies whine about being subject to someone else’s authority.
Almost like “tankies” don’t have some religious reverence for “authority” but in fact specifically believe it should be directed in a certain way . . .
Oh and, more broadly I’d note that virtually all authoritarians believe that authority should be directed in a specific way. That’s exactly how their irrationality manifests - they don’t advocate for authority broadly, because that carries with it the risk that they might end up subject to someone else’s authority. They advocate only for their own authority, or for that of their ideological fellows.
So what that boils down to is that they explicitly advocate for visiting on other people that which they explicitly oppose being visited on themselves.
Or in simpler terms, they’re self-centered assholes.
I’m not an anarchist by accident.
You’re failing to understand that the interest of “tankies” is in democracy being enforced by a proletarian control of the state. The copypastas you were getting were poor communication but they had a point.
The fact that you’re comfortably arguing in parallel with blatant neoliberals should give you pause, or are you going to tell me they are less of a concern because they are not “authoritarian,” because when people are richer than God and control immense swaths of production and politicians themselves while skirting regulation to fuck over the workers their class made desperate by enclosing the commons, that is not “authoritarian”? This whole thing seems kind of bankrupt to me as far as political theory goes. The mechanisms of control are diffused by various means into the economy and divided among the public/private sector, but if the private sector owns the public sector (and it does) you’ve got a class of kings who only half-pretend they aren’t (Zuck deliberately getting that Caesar haircut is a tell).
That’s exactly why it’s cynically amusing - because they “believe it should be directed in a certain way.”
Specifically, they’re entirely on-board when someone who happens to wear the same ideological label they do uses it to, for instance, massacre “dissidents,” but the instant anyone else uses it in any way that causes some minor inconvenience for themselves, they start mewling about how oppressed they are.
There’s just no point. Literally no one among the communists I’ve seen cheers on killing dissidents just because. Fascist collaborators, sure, but not mere dissidents. You’re just inventing people to disparage.
Here come the “tankies bad” whiners, right on cue.
Tankies are bad though
“Tankie” is a meaningless term libs use to dismiss anyone to the left of them. It’s as empty as boomers calling everything to the left of Reagan “communist.”
As a tank fetishist, I appreciate the representation.
Would you prefer Authoritarian Left instead? Because authoritarian is authoritarian is authoritarian. Left or right fuck off with your supreme leader bullshit.
“Authoritarian” is fairly meaningless in this context. All societies and political structures rely on authority to maintain social control to greater or lesser extents. What is the difference between a tax collector and an armed robber? Both demand money from you and threaten violence if you don’t give it to them. The main (and some would say only) difference is in authority. The tax collector has authority, the robber does not.
Where does liberal “democracy” derive its authority from? Most liberals will claim that it comes from the approval of the people or the democratic mandate (same thing, really). Why then do studies repeatedly show that there is no correlation between popular opinion and policy? Why do the majority of Americans want public health care and yet it never passes?
There is no democratic mandate in liberal democracy, it certainly doesn’t result in policy that represents the real will of the people. The people can vote a guy out? And what? Replace him with a different dude who won’t do what the people want?
What happens if someone picks up a gun and tries to oppose the “democratic” consensus anyway in a liberal democracy? Do you just sit by and let the state be destroyed? No, the democratic state uses its own authority to oppress this opposition.
There is no such thing as a distinction between “democracy” and “authoritarian”. It’s a meaningless buzzword. The opposite of a democracy is an autocracy or an oligarchy, not “authoritarian”. That’s just something westerners fling at other people’s democracies which they don’t like for daring to vote for something against US interests and want to see them blown up and millions killed and displaced. Every state seeks to preserve itself and so every state will use authority when it is faced with potential destruction. This is not inherently a bad thing, it obviously depends on the government in question, and who is trying to destroy it, and why. People always justify the use of authoritarian means used by whoever they support, and then those who are intellectually dishonest pretend that somehow their use of authority isn’t “authoritarian”.
“Authoritarian” is fairly meaningless in this context. All societies and political structures rely on authority to maintain social control to greater or lesser extents.
“Authoritarian” doesn’t refer merely to the existence of authority. It refers to a system under which, on balance, individual liberty is secondary to governmental authority - a system under which there is more likelihood that an individual will be constrained by authority than that theybwill be free to act as they choose.
And note, before you even go there, that that doesn’t mean or imply no individual liberty. Again, the issue is the balance between individual liberty and governmental authority.
Where does liberal “democracy” derive its authority from?
Why are we suddenly talking about democracy?
Why then do studies repeatedly show that there is no correlation between popular opinion and policy? Why do the majority of Americans want public health care and yet it never passes?
Why are we now suddenly talking about representative “democracy” instead?
Yes - of course there’s a gap between actual public sentiment and the machinations of representatuve "democracy - that’s most of the point. It’s a system that’s been sold to the unwary to give them an illusion of self-determination behind which the oligarchs can hide.
How is that relevant to anything? (Other than a broad argument against institutionalized authority in general, which I’d agree with).
There is no such thing as a distinction between “democracy” and “authoritarian”
Not necessarily, but as a general rule, there is, simply because it’s more difficult for oligarchs in a representative democracy to enact their will. There’s a number of hoops that they have to jump through in order to maintain at least some semblance of serving the will of the people, and that specifically because the people still retain some significant freedoms (remember - it’s about the balance between freedom and authority).
In effect, oligarchs in a representative democracy have to trick or coerce people into not exercising their freedoms or exercising them poorly.
In an authoritarian system, the balance favors the government in the first place, so they’re far more likely to be able to simply issue decrees and then enforce them, without having to muck about with all of the pretending to be serving the will of the people stuff.
Granted that it’s not as significant a difference as gung-ho Americans might wish to believe it to be, there is still a difference.
Every state seeks to preserve itself and so every state will use authority when it is faced with potential destruction. This is not inherently a bad thing
Actually, I would say that it is inherently a bad thing.
That’s an awful lot of why I’m an anarchist - I believe that institutionalized authority cannot be justified and is inevitably destructive.
But that’s sort of beside the point.
People always justify the use of authoritarian means used by whoever they support, and then those who are intellectually dishonest pretend that somehow their use of authority isn’t “authoritarian”.
This reads like classic projection.
And in fact, I just wrote another post in which I pointed to what I believe to be the fundamental flaw at the heart of the tankie position, and it was pretty much exactly what you wrote here.
My position is that if you’re going to hold that authority is legitimate, then that means that you are legitimately subject to it. You don’t get to pick and choose, just as you wouldn’t allow those who would be subject to your authority pick and choose. Just as you hold that they’re rightly subjugated if those with whom you agree are in power, you’re rightly subjugated if those with whom they agree are in power.
It’s either that or you carry your aversion to being made subject to someone else’s authority to its logical conclusion and cede to others the exact same freedom you wish to have yourself.
You can’t have it both ways. You’re not some sort of demi-god, deserving of special treatment. If you can rightly oppress others they can rightly oppress you. If they can’t rightly oppress you, you can’t rightly oppress them.
That last is the main reason I’m an anarchist.
“Authoritarian” doesn’t refer merely to the existence of authority. It refers to a system under which, on balance, individual liberty is secondary to governmental authority - a system under which there is more likelihood that an individual will be constrained by authority than that theybwill be free to act as they choose.
And note, before you even go there, that that doesn’t mean or imply no individual liberty. Again, the issue is the balance between individual liberty and governmental authority.
Individual liberty is secondary to governmental authority in ALL states. Your liberty ends exactly where it harms the ability of the state to exert its authority. The perceived liberty you believe any state gives only exists within strict boundaries where the use of that liberty does not threaten the state, as soon as it does threaten the state you become the subject of repression. This is true of all states, socialist or liberal.
Why are we suddenly talking about democracy?
We’re talking about liberal democracy because the implication you made was that “authoritarian” states should be opposed whereas the status quo should be maintained. The implication you made was not between anarchism and socialism, it was between what currently exists and what MLs would like to replace it with. You were placing yourself in defence of liberalism when you did this, not anarchism.
Not necessarily, but as a general rule, there is, simply because it’s more difficult for oligarchs in a representative democracy to enact their will. There’s a number of hoops that they have to jump through in order to maintain at least some semblance of serving the will of the people, and that specifically because the people still retain some significant freedoms (remember - it’s about the balance between freedom and authority).
In effect, oligarchs in a representative democracy have to trick or coerce people into not exercising their freedoms or exercising them poorly.
In an authoritarian system, the balance favors the government in the first place, so they’re far more likely to be able to simply issue decrees and then enforce them, without having to muck about with all of the pretending to be serving the will of the people stuff.
What system? You’re not naming a system, you’re vaguely saying “authoritarian system” with no real definition. Describe the authoritarian system. How do their elections work? What is its structure? How do their votes work? How do their courts interact? What is their constitution? Etc etc.
This vague “authoritarian system” is the culprit here for the problems. It’s “bad country” with no real material description or understanding of how “bad country” functions. This is the very point I tried to raise in my first comment, that this wordplay is used to denote “bad country” whenever it has chosen to do something that opposes US (or generally western) interests.
Actually, I would say that it is inherently a bad thing.
That’s an awful lot of why I’m an anarchist - I believe that institutionalized authority cannot be justified and is inevitably destructive.
Sure. I was an anarchist until not too long ago so I don’t actually disagree with you. States are bad. There’s a reason we all want to achieve their eventual abolishment, whether or not we disagree on how to get there. We generally agree that states do bad things. The liberal state does bad things in service of defending the liberal state and maintaining the status quo, the socialist state does bad things in service of defending the socialist state.
This reads like classic projection.
Pointing out the capitalist state does exactly everything that the socialist state does in one way or another is not projection. Come on now you’re better than this you don’t need to go to bat for liberalism as part of your opposition to socialism.
And in fact, I just wrote another post in which I pointed to what I believe to be the fundamental flaw at the heart of the tankie position, and it was pretty much exactly what you wrote here.
My position is that if you’re going to hold that authority is legitimate, then that means that you are legitimately subject to it. You don’t get to pick and choose, just as you wouldn’t allow those who would be subject to your authority pick and choose. Just as you hold that they’re rightly subjugated if those with whom you agree are in power, you’re rightly subjugated if those with whom they agree are in power.
So do you believe in using authority to kill fascists? Do you believe in using authority to prevent liberals from rebuilding a capitalist state in your newly stateless anarchist collective? What are you going to do when one part of the population decides to start a state? Let them or fight them? As an anarchist my understanding of authority was significantly more fleshed out than this, I knew full well that as anarchists we would be exerting authority on some part of the population during and after revolution until achieving what we wanted, and that we would then violently prevent its destruction. Are you opposed to Mahkno and his army violently overthrowing and instilling their ideology on their opposition? Are you opposed to the Spanish anarchists of revolutionary Catalonia violently fighting a civil war for their ideology? Why do you not consider these actions of violence to be the violent use of authority by one part of the population upon another? You can not be a revolutionary and also be against the use of authority, they are strictly in conflict, even as an anarchist if you ever see or take part in an anarchist revolution you will be directly oppressing the opposition through use of force at some stage or another.
there is no such thing as a distinction between “democracy” and “authoritarian”.
Lol. Ok.
That’s not really a good-faith response. You’re not engaging with what “authority” actually means, or why one state that murders and imprisons people for trying to overthrow the state is different to another state that murders and imprisons people for trying to overthrow the state, these happen under both. What is the country with the largest prison population in the world? Do you not consider that authoritarian? Why not? The US operates Guantanamo on land that Cuba doesn’t want it on, and refuses to close Guantanamo and return the land to the Cuban people, is that not authoritarian? Why not?
What specific part of Cuba’s electoral system is authoritarian?
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Weird how I’ve been in so-called “tankie” spaces for years and I never hear praise for authoritarian leaders. It’s almost as if all these “tankies bad” whiners are just liberals who don’t know shit about communism and are literally indistinguishable from the “woke bad” nonsense I hear from reactionaries.
I never said anything about you praising authoritarian leaders, that’s the picture you’re painting in your head. Whether or not you’re praising them, I think ‘supreme leader’ encompasses the definition:
“leaders behavior that asserts absolute authority and control over subordinates and [that] demands unquestionable obedience from subordinates.”
Unquestionable obedience. Like a master and a slave. Like a dog.
‘Tankie’ is often associated with Marxist-Leninists.
Taken from the ‘communism’ wiki page,
Communists often seek a voluntary state of self-governance but disagree on the means to this end. This reflects a distinction between a more libertarian approach of communization, revolutionary spontaneity, and workers’ self-management, and a more authoritarian vanguardist or communist party-driven approach through the development of a socialist state followed by the withering away of the state.
Would you look at that. Authoritarian approach. The root of disagreement among communist.
Wow a completely misinterpreted paragraph copied directly from wikipedia, you sure showed me.
I never said anything about you praising authoritarian leaders, that’s the picture you’re painting in your head.
You started going on about “supreme leaders” out of nowhere, how exactly was I supposed to interpret that?
Either way I think it’s funny that the other user who replied to you gave a much more detailed and educated answer than I did yet you chose to ignore them and reply to me instead. You don’t actually to want to have a conversation and learn things, you’re just here to troll.
Like the authority to block entire instances without asking the users or giving a reason
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very true but users deserve the admin and instance stance on allowing free-speech without woke instances spreading misinfo so hopefully the statement includes a good reason why and how they’ll be applying that to other woke-tankie instances
The admins don’t owe any of us anything. This isn’t how it works.
Vote with your feet if you dislike the instance, or roll out your own, but quit whinging.
I am asking for a statement so that I can decide what to do, is this instance going to take a stand against the woke tankie fascists that infect every online platform or allow free speech to be destroyed
全世界無產階級和被壓迫的民族聯合起來！
I mean, thats litterally the point of federated instances. If you don’t like this one, you can find one you like more, or spin up your own and control your own federation without worrying!
I agree that the admins should maintain a list, but this is still really early days of Lemmy.
I wonder if it’s because of the similarities between it and Grad? Just speculating, I have no idea.
lemmygrad.ml is not blocked
Ohhhh, well I’m not sure then. That’s a bit odd. Sorry for just randomly chiming in.
Looks like censorship to me.
So done didn’t like their free speech so defederated them. Is Lemmy be coming Facebook with censorship now?
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Their first rule is that you can’t criticize communism… I’m totally in support of defederating with every instance that is poised to become toxic echo-chamers, which censore reality and open discussion in order to peddle misinformation and propoganda…
Those cesspits should be isolated to fester instead of rotting other people’s brains with their propoganda and censorship. Good riddance.
Their first rule is that you can’t criticize communism…
No it isn’t. That’s literaly not Hexbear’s rules. The closest thing to that in Hexbear’s rules would be this one:
We are a platform that welcomes anyone who wants to be here in good faith. With that said, we are also an intentionally leftist platform; conservative and reactionary ideologies will not be tolerated here.
my guy you are literally posting lemmygrad.ml rules hexbear.net doesnt have that but the admin of lemmy.ml remove anti-communist posts so block all the woke instances
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What part are they lying about, exactly?
After reading the chunk about the maidan protests, I suspect it’s less outright lying and more the fact that they’re holding a very biased pro-Russian, view of the events.
It’s literally Lemmygrad instance rules lol
All you have to do is check the sidebar of https://lemmygrad.ml and see for yourself
I think this is my favourite comment in this thread. The clear logical fallacy of it without a shred of self reflection legitimately made me laugh for minutes. Well done.
There’s no hypocrisy in what I said. I don’t support creating echo-chamers thru censoring discussion.
It’s not hypocritical to say I don’t agree with federating with instances which construct/enforce specific narratives/propoganda that others are exposed to.
That’s like saying you can’t support free speech and not be okay with libel or false rape accusations. Bullshit.
Whether I agree with the narrative or not, forced narratives and censoring dissenting discussion is bad for communities and breeds extremism and echo-chamers.
Whether I agree with the narrative or not, forced narratives and censoring dissenting discussion is bad for communities and breeds extremism and echo-chamers.
You are advocating for doing that by advocating for defederation. This completely lacks any self awareness.
I’m totally in support of defederating with every instance that is poised to become toxic echo-chamers
This is gold Jerry!
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No. Stop with the Red Herring.
Disallowing criticism in general is not the same thing as endorsing fascism.
Now if only lemmy.world admins can be convinced to defederate from the rest of the dictatorship supporting tankie trash instances.
The good thing about the fediverse is that an admin can make a unilateral decision on the whole community without having to bother with asking users to vote. I hope the admins come out in support of this, it is why they have the power.
