• BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          It’s only us vs the billionaires! Don’t let them try to pit us against each other!

          Anyone who owns more than two houses deserves to die!

          Anyone who works X job is a bastard, no matter how much good they do.

          No, I will not run for local elections.

          No, I will not give up Xitter I need it to follow my niche artists despite them having accounts on multiple other platforms including BlueSky.

          No I will not give up Facebook. I need it to poke meemaw and check the marketplace for things I’ll never buy or sell because Craigslist amirite?

          At least all you twats use ETA less than they do on reddit. That bugs me way more than it should.

      • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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        There’s also the part that is into crushing with a tank people who don’t hate the USA more than anything in the universe.

        • CazzoneArrapante@lemm.ee
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          Honestly I feel like most people on here are just tired of the ultra-capitalistic hell neoliberalism threw us into and want a better system that doesn’t rape dry the Earth and doesn’t allow companies to have the same wealth as entire states. Those people you mention are just a very loud, screaming minority.

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            I’m part of these people, I think most of them are social democrat and don’t have any illusion about supposedly socialist countries.
            Yes, they are a minority since .world became the biggest player, but they are still very visible if you mention those subjects and countries, they are going to pop up.

    • boreengreen@lemm.ee
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      Linux, reddit bad, socialism and star trek are alright. The bean thing I don’t get. Never am I gonna spend energy learning about it either.

      • Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        The bean thing I don’t get

        I recall that being a thing on Reddit too for a bit… Just the internet doing its thing. People like random shit - it all gud.

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      Bagging Reddit is actually kinda discouraged, more Linux and communism. Or at least screeching about capitalism at every opportunity.

      • TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
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        Yeah, for a website forged almost exclusively from former Redditors and especially ones who got burned by Reddit’s abysmal leadership, I rarely see complaints about Reddit on here – arguably far fewer than on Reddit itself.

        • NateNate60@lemmy.worldOP
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          The socialists are the native inhabitants of this land, the Redditors are the ruthless imperialist colonisers.

            • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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              He says that because the creators are tankies and so were the first communities built around them like .ml administrated by the creators. Last year’s Redditors migration after the API change moved the political center more towards social democracy and the people center towards .world.

              • argv minus one@mastodon.sdf.org
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                Indeed, but the old tankie instances still exist, same as always. The centrists went elsewhere, to non-tankie instances that were set up for them.

                Colonization involves taking somebody else’s land, but this is more like creating more land out of thin air and settling there.

                • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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                  I think those people consider the Lemmy federation to be their playground, and they are being xenophobic about others, but since there is not supposed to be xenophobia in their ideology, they call it colonialism instead.

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            Or maybe the Redditors are refugees and the lemmy nativists have convinced themselves they are eating their pets.

        • BalooWasWahoo@links.hackliberty.org
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          That’s been a welcome change in the last ~6 months. It was a fire hose blast of people going back and forth on whether a ‘thing’ was brought over from reddit, and whether or not it was welcome.

            • BalooWasWahoo@links.hackliberty.org
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              Oh, just insert whatever you remember from reddit. Replies that are obviously jokes but off topic, mimicking a meme or such; doing the ‘follow the link’ meme (though I only remember that one popping up once or twice); sounding out a sentence one word per reply… I saw all of those get panned or promoted. Some people screamed about leaving such habits at reddit, others thought they were the height of humor.

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                There’s a lot of those jokes that will hopefully die on the platform. They had well and truly run their course even on Reddit.

    • Lucidlethargy@sh.itjust.works
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      Say Windows bad as well. We’re not allowed to use Windows for some reason… I use it, and I’m not sorry, but I really don’t care about internet doots.

    • socsa@piefed.social
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      Not enough blaming capitalism for problems which have nothing to do with capitalism.

    • f314@lemmy.world
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      I mean, Linux (and the entire ecosystem) is a fundamentally socialist concept.

      • NateNate60@lemmy.worldOP
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        I would say GNU is one that’s openly socialist. If Linux’s (or rather, Linus Torvald’s) philosophy is socialist, they either do a very good job of hiding the fact or there is a lot I don’t know about them.

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            That doesn’t make him a socialist. He doesn’t espouse any of the core socialist beliefs there. He’s just saying he’s a “woke communist” (as described by the right), which could mean anything from a centre-left liberal to a Marxist.

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              Socialism is when Linus does stuff. And it’s more socialism the more stuff he does. And if he does a real lot of stuff, that’s communism.

        • uis@lemm.ee
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          Wasn’t Torvalds’ dad member of communist party?

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            Yes, and was a member of the EU parliament until recently. Both his parents were pretty radical. Linus tends to keep his politics private for the most part.

          • NateNate60@lemmy.worldOP
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            Maybe so, but children don’t always adopt the ideology of their parents. They usually do, but not always.

        • frezik@midwest.social
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          Unpopular opinion: “Open Source”, spawned from Netscape spinning off Mozilla, laid out in definition by the OSI organization, and advocated for by AnCaps like Eric S. Raymond, was always fundamentally capitalist. Devs spending a lot of free time doing free work for companies was not an accident. Capitalists borrowing ideas from the left and twisting them for their own uses is not new, either.

          Free Software is more rooted in communism. You’re doing this to help your community. RMS might have always denied it–probably because it wasn’t a good idea to advocate that way during the Cold War and after–but it’s a better philosophical fit.

          It’s past time to divorce the two.

          • GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca
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            There are discussions about open vs. free going back over 20 years, that I know of. The divorce happened long ago, but they’re still neighbors.

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              Those discussions largely resulted in “FOSS”, and a basic peace treaty. The two tended to use the same techniques and licenses in practice, and nobody really wanted to have that fight.

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                I didn’t realize things had progressed to this point. I thought there were still some mainstream distros that would qualify as Free, but the only ones GNU endorses are ones I’ve never heard of. There do still seem to be some non-GNU projects with a freedom-first philosophy.

        • acockworkorange@mander.xyz
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          I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

          Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called Linux, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

          There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine’s resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called Linux distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux!

  • qooqie@lemmy.world
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    I realize we’re inherently not capitalistic platform because everyone has the access to own their portion. Pretty cool imo and not to toot the horn for the millionth time, it definitely seems like the future of the internet

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    My partner has been insinuating that I’m a communist recently. I don’t think I’m a communist, I simply want to seize the means of production for the people.

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      It’s part of the plan. To get people to accept a perspective before learning from where one has to stand to have such a perspective.

      Something that can’t be denied is that there are bad actors in America who actively want the downfall of America. These groups look to the future and determine what will harm America in critical aspects. These groups (sometimes actively funded by other nations) arent actively seeking uprising or revolt this year, or next year, but maybe by the end of the decade, or maybe the next decade.

      These malevolent forces at work arent readily apparent. One of these goals is division. “Divide and conquer.” I don’t believe it’s completely by accident that politics are so divisive right now.

      I’m not that old, but I remember a time when people wouldn’t generalize and stereotype each other based on political leanings.

      We again need to prioritize love for each other over political standings.

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        “I’m not that old, but I remember a time when people wouldn’t generalize and stereotype each other based on political leanings.”

        I remember a time when people had to band together to fight back dinosaurs in order to stop them from terrorizing villages.

        Want to write a history book with me?

        We could call it “Bullshit That Clearly Never Happened”

        • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          It’s also voluntarism: the OS, as it is entirely maintained by willing members of the community.

          Honestly, probably moreso in most cases, as while socialism is fine with getting funding from taxation voluntarism sees that as coercive by nature, advocating for voluntary donations (time/money/labor) to help out the community instead. Some stuff was developed with tax funding for sure, and some directly by the NSA like SELinux iirc, but I think it’s still mainly private citizens/corpo donations and volunteers/people that get paid using those donations.

    • NateNate60@lemmy.worldOP
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      The socialists must flee what was formerly known as Twitter, now under the control of a totalitarian fascist regime ruled by a mad dictator, or face extermination, and are now refugees wherever they ended up on the Internet

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        it’s also currently known as twitter. even the madman calls it twitter and says tweet and shit. he’s so fucking dumb.

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    I just hate how it is vilified when we literally freely give billions in taxpayer monies to oil companies.

    • NateNate60@lemmy.worldOP
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      I want to seize the means of production as much as the next guy but it gets kinda boring after a while if that’s the only content available

    • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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      I’m just sick of the fucking tankies telling me World War 3 will finally give us workers rights.

      • Soup@lemmy.cafe
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        They claim both sides are equally as bad while ignoring the fact that their side has never even been tested. Therefore they have no fucking clue that they wouldn’t be worse.

        Shill Stein has already been outed, West is an incompetent blowhard and only shows up ever four years to suggest impractical and irrelevant nonsense,

        And JFK….

        The Green Party is essential a giant spoiler campaign.

          • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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            I don’t think there are real communists honestly. I don’t think communism is ever really a “viable” solution unless you suppress freedoms. Also someone will always rise to the top. Communism is just one big corporation that you can not leave.

            • NateNate60@lemmy.worldOP
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              At the risk of starting another argument, I have heard it described thusly—

              Suppose you have some number of apples and some number of people who want the apples.

              • Capitalism is where one person owns all the apples and everyone has to work for them to get an apple.
              • Socialism is where the apples are distributed evenly to all the people who want them.
              • Communism is where unlimited apples fall out of the sky and everyone can have as many as they need.

              Now, this quote was originally used by capitalists to mock communism, but I think it’s really not a bad analogy. Think about it: Star Trek, another beloved Lemmy staple, takes place in a communist society. Everyone works whatever job they want contributing to society and in return, everyone gets whatever they need provided for by the state. It’s not truly post scarcity, since human greed always outstrips any finite amount of resources. But there is no distinction of rich or poor in Star Trek. People are judged by their intelligence, skill, and merit, and rewarded proportionally. At the same time, there is no concept of money, mostly (except when the plot needs it). What good is money when all your necessities are taken care of? All but your wildest desires can be conjured up at a snap of your fingers, and all the state asks in return is that you do what you can to contribute. It is a mutually beneficial relationship that most people have learned to be content with. That, my friends, is an ideal depiction of communism.

              • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nz
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                • Capitalism is where one person owns all the copies of Tommy Wiseau’s The Room
                • Socialism is where the copies of Tommy Wiseau’s The Room are distributed evenly to all the people who want them
                • Communism is where a transgender furry breaks the DRM on the DVD and publishes a torrent of Tommy Wiseau’s The Room
              • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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                I think the Star Trek ideal is not viable in the least as people will always be self centered. They will either seek either to make there own lives better or to make there families lives better. Also Star Trek changes its narrative depending on the movie or series.

                • ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net
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                  I don’t think humans would be naturally self centered if they lived in an environment that actually encouraged sharing and cooperation instead of actively encouraging and rewarding psychopathy and selfishness.

                  There were likely people who thought it impossible that wolves would someday become domesticated, and eventually be our best buds, due to their ‘unchangeable’ nature.

                  We are all products of our environment.

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              I think a public production and distribution of goods can be handled democratically which will eventually happen organically with a strong and adaptable democracy, furthermore I agree any other form of Communism such as the CCP is just malarkey.

            • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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              Hong Kong, Taiwan, Tibet, the Phillippines, Crimea, and Ukraine (just to name some ongoing conflicts)

              But sure, its all the west with their “mutual defence pacts” and their “incentivizing diplomacy through trade”, Those beligerent bastards.

              Also, though, whataboutism in the face of their dogshit ideology.

            • Soup@lemmy.cafe
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              I don’t think you’ll find too many bOtH siDEs accelerationists among the liberals, but don’t let this get in the way of some good ol’ fashioned uninformed ignorance!

        • WillStealYourUsername@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          I mean that’s why they are called tankies :P It’s a derogatory word originally used to describe “socialists” defending tanks being sent into ukraine by the soviet union, and then was quickly used to describe all “socialists” defending genocide, imperialism, and authoritarianism.

    • Soup@lemmy.cafe
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      Nine times out of ten it’s incorrectly defined by idealists that haven’t figured out that a fair amount of American sociological and economic standards are already steeped in socialist services, and the rest of the rhetoric that defines socialism would absolutely fail if attempted in America.

      In short, nine times out of ten, a socialist has absolutely no fucking idea what they’re talking about, but just parroting smug bullshit that they think makes them look edgy and educated.

      • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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        a fair amount of American sociological and economic standards are already steeped in socialist services

        If you believe this to be true then you don’t understand what socialism actually is. You seem to be of the mind that any publicly funded service or welfare is socialist, and I don’t blame you for thinking this since it is what the mainstream American political discourse would have you believe.

        In short, nine times out of ten, a socialist has absolutely no fucking idea what they’re talking about, but just parroting smug bullshit that they think makes them look edgy and educated.

        When you say this immediately after demonstrating that you actually have no idea what you’re talking about it’s a pretty bad look. People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

      • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nz
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        Drag thinks the means of production should be owned by the workers. Drag is curious why you think the American workers own “a fair amount” of the means of production.

    • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      socialism itself is just, kinda weird. From a philosophical perspective it makes sense and has clear distinctions. But from a practical view it’s just sort of. Capitalism but if it was more confusing for some reason. If you go too far into one direction, it’s just communism, and that’s not socialism, obviously. The other direction and it’s literally just capitalism, so it has to sit in this weird space between where you can’t engage with the best parts of capitalism (or it just weirdly handicaps parts of capitalism) and communism.

      and then of course you’ve got people (probably grifters) like hasan piker who claim to be socialist while having millions of dollars, but doing literally nothing with it, because investing it wouldn’t be socialist, and you can’t really just give it away, because well, it’s a lot of money. I mean you could, but it’s also just, sort of redundant at that point.

      Realistically he should be investing that money into a lot of different things, increasing returns on revenues, and creating a content creator collective or something silly like that, but to my knowledge he hasn’t probably because he’s either stupid or lazy. I don’t blame him for either of those things though.

      socialism, particularly modern western socialism that’s based on capital needs a fundamental proof of concept work-through before we can really do anything with it, i think.

      Capitalism, while it has problems, it at least makes sense on a fundamental human perspective. I own things, you own things, we own things, that also applies to capital as well. It’s so fundamentally tied to the human experience and history that it’s just sort of hard to deviate from. Even china does a lot of capitalism.

      man that was much longer than i anticipated. Apologies in retrospective lol.

      Anyway for the second part of the admittedly very old and dead joke by this point in the post. It’s a meme about socialism on the internet. (particularly a farther left space on the internet)

        • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          i’ve seen socialism defined as anything from early USSR under lenin, to capitalism but if private ownership of capital isn’t a thing anymore.

          It’s incredibly broad depending on how you want to apply it. And technically, communism is actually a subset of socialism.

          Capitalism is likewise pretty broad as well, but generally the ownership of capital is traceable and has some form of root ownership. Even things like stocks still have clearly defined ownership. Loans are weird, but the ownership there is clearly defined.

          Under socialism loans may not even be possible, depending on how aggressive with it you are. Unless you lent to a third party, like a separate state/country i guess.

          IDK what definition you’re working with here, but there isn’t much flexibility allowing you very much room to differentiate it here. I’m really not sure how you’re going to work out of this one to be honest.

          Like philosophically, socialism is theoretically simple. it’s the implementation that’s hard. The idea is pretty simple, it’s the concept that there is no singular ownership, but collective ownership. You could define this as something like “anybody who has any investment in any product/good or service has ownership” but this gets sort of confusing. If i buy product from the goods company, does that mean i now own a “share” of the goods company? If i can, does this mean buying literal shares of the company would be “negative” shares? Or is this backwards, buying product produces a negative share, while investing provides a positive share. Does this influence the “shares” of the employees of the company? Are these the same shares? Can i simply out own the shares of any employee with (literal) capital? Or is buying product not applicable in this scenario. That seems reasonable to me, so we’ll omit that.

          Where does currency even come from? The government? The global trade market? Who owns that? Since the money is in my possession, and it’s doing work for me, i must own it, at least partially, but it’s also capable of doing work for others, so do other people also own a part of the capital that i hold? That would be weird so let’s simply ascribe capital as a means of temporarily holding “schizo” capital.

          so now we have a socialist society, that has private capital, and relatively isolated businesses. The employees own a share of the business. We still havent determined how that’s proportioned. But we can assume they do, so we have a relatively capitalist market, as that’s generally how a market is going to work most effectively (also that would literally just be communism at that point), unless you are either god, or the worlds most powerful supercomputer that can simply predict the needs of a market at a whim. Or you just allow no flexibility in the market (surely this won’t cause problems) with companies that don’t have direct ownership, which is not dissimilar to how the silicon valley works, minus the VC funding.

          So we’ve basically just created capitalism, but different. Not that this is a bad thing. It’s just, an odd problem.

          At the end of the day, it’s either going to approach communism, or capitalism, there is no distinct mechanism of socialism. I generally refer to this as an “approaching zero problem” as it has no clear definition, and if you go far enough you’re just going to end up back where you started, one way or the other.

            • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              So I guess the problem is that socialism and communism are kinda used in two different ways. One way refers to a political program, the other refers to a hypothetical stage of economic development.

              yeah, so the way that i see it is that communism is a specific subset of socialism with very clearly defined restrictions, however i think it suffers from a generally similar problem, regarding the lack of specificity at least. Capitalism manages to do away with it on a fundamental basis by simply moving that to the markets itself. I guess to preface this entire comment, i see the lack of market flexibility as a fundamental issue with everything other than capitalism, as it’s a decentralized system that works to fit the market needs.

              But “socialism” and “communism” as stages of economic development are moving targets, impossible to pin down because they’re entirely hypothetical and there are only a couple countries that have even tried to achieve them.

              This is one of my primary concerns when i see people talking about economic socialism, there is no clearly defined mechanism of operation for it.

              Was the Soviet Union communist? Well, it was lead by Communists in the political program sense, but I don’t think anyone would argue that it achieved communism in the economic and social development sense.

              it also depends on the period of time as well, you could make the argument that under lenin it was communist/socialist, but under stalin it was more authoritarian/dictatorship. It certainly made strides and advancements from the previous state that russia was in at the time, so there’s something to be said about that, although it’s pretty clear to most people that this was primarily due to industrialization and increasing productivity, which levels off in a goods market eventually.

              Modern day China, too, is Communist in the political sense, but even by their own metrics they are still capitalist, and see socialism as a goal they are working towards (if you believe their rhetoric and don’t think it’s all just cynical, which many western socialists do).

              i’m not sure how applicable this is, since communism and capitalism are economic systems, the chinese government would be more authoritarian capitalist than anything. And as you said “socialism” as defined is a very broad goal, so it’s really hard to even interpret that statement to begin with.

              So while the Chinese Communists have their own definition of practical socialism, western leftists are not in power and all of our ideas remain purely theoretical as a result. Add to this the fact that there is no major leftist political org in western countries for the socialists to rally around and you get more definitions of socialism and communism (the stages of economic development) than you can shake a stick at. This leads to the problem you’re describing, where socialism appears to have no solid meaning at all, because the notion of it is so phantasmal.

              yeah i’m just sort of surprised that with the modern age being here and present and what not, that somebody hasn’t tried simulating a few hundred variants of a socialist economy to write a thesis on yet, it shouldn’t be difficult, and i’m sure it would make for an interesting read. It’s definitely an odd problem to have with something so popular among farther left types. Even the far right nazis know what they want to do when they get into government lol.

              But I don’t think that you can dismiss socialism or its results as “capitalism, but different,” because the whole thing about socialism is that new power structures create new incentive structures and therefore even if there are some superficial elements of capitalism that remain - like the use of currency - under a socialist regime the outcomes should be more equal, fair, and democratic.

              to be clear, i’m not inherently dismissing socialism, i’m just dismissing the particular issue i see present with it. And while the equality aspect is arguably true, i feel like you could just as easily apply socialist policy to a capitalist system and get a similar result, while retaining the very clear operation of capitalism.

              There are numerous historical examples of these better alternative outcomes, but of course they’ve all been relentlessly propagandized against in Western countries so that the average person doesn’t realize that there is a better way to run society than the one they were born into.

              idk i guess i just feel like we kinda hit the nail on the head with the “decentralized self regulating market economy” idea from the get go. There are problems with it, and notable issues for sure, but that’s why the government exists, to take care of these problems. There are also some interesting ethical implications you get into with either system as well. That’s a whole other discussion though.

          • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nz
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            3 months ago

            capitalism but if private ownership of capital isn’t a thing anymore.

            Drag has never heard of that. Then again, drag has never heard of wet deserts or bland spices either.

            • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              3 months ago

              surprised that you haven’t heard of bland spices, but i guess it’s all relative.

              As for deserts, snow is very water based. As is ice. Antarctica is very ice.

        • Soup@lemmy.cafe
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          3 months ago

          It makes perfect sense if you understand how nuance works. But I think there is where the problem lies- YOUR confusion stems from your inability to understand it.

            • Soup@lemmy.cafe
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              3 months ago

              They’re not wrong. And I’m not going to apologize for not feeling like explaining it to you, but I’ll advise that you start by learning what nuance actually means.

                • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  3 months ago

                  This is one of the most inane threads I’ve ever seen on Lemmy. Nuance is having a fine understanding of a topic, while the line I’m quoting is taking a complicated topic and boiling it down to a truism.

                  well yeah, i’m reading economic socialism down through the lense of capitalism. Obviously it’s going to be a little bit restrictive, this is lemmy, not a PHD thesis.