And I’m being serious. I feel like there might be an argument there, I just don’t understand it. Can someone please “steelman” that argument for me?
If you think there was a genuine argument to not vote for Harris over Gaza war crimes, you were amongst those successfully manipulated by Russia. That argument was entirely of America’s enemies’ making as a means to get Trump elected.
You are absolutely correct. The unfortunate fact is that propaganda works. Even if you know it is propaganda, it still works.
A bit like a placebo in that regard.
My own argument to these people has been that I’d prefer they go out and cast their (wasted) votes for a third party, rather than simply stay home. A lot of Lemmy disagrees with me on that, focusing on the (true) realization that their third parties won’t get elected.
In this election’s current aftermath, much of the blame has been stating that voters were just lazy or unmotivated. The only thing this message encourages is to repeat more rallies, make more promises by demographics and region so people know to get out and vote.
If you vote third party, it sends a message that you are motivated to vote, but you are not pleased with the current messages of the party. That results in a very different change of action.
Unfortunately, this whole practice is extremely long-term-focused. Many people in this election have been desperate for short-term solutions, like the Ukraine/Gaza wars. Ideally, this kind of reaction would have started in 2016/2020 - but third-party votes have been miniscule in those elections too.
Vote swapping is a thing you know. No reason to punch everyone in the nuts and double-down fuck your cause of you can vote the least worst option and I’ll vote your 3rd party in my solid red dumpster state.
I know people who voted neither candidate because Trump was horrible and Harris was pro-choice. Single-issue voters are the death of democracy. Full stop.
I said months ago that we were going to “single issue” our way to Trump 2.0, and I’ve never ever wanted to be wrong more than when I said that.
Edit: Updated with receipts.
nearly all the single-issue voters on the right vote in lock-step unison, and have for decades.
democrats and progressives seem to just toss in the towel if they aren’t getting everything they want, right now.
it takes time to build something great, it takes but a moment to destroy it all. welcome to total destruction.
Yep, to all that, and I’ve often grumbled the same things.
Single-issue voters on the right, single-issue nonvoters on the left.
“Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line.”
Everything being ‘dont genocide’ just so we’re clear here. I dont particularly think that was a huge ask. Nor do i think effective economic policies changes for the working class.
And we’ll get to see what the alternative provides. Yay, you won.
No I didnt we lost. We lost our humanity, we’ve lost our shared communities. The fact i had to spend the last year arguing with people that genocide is not fucking okay is evidence of that.
In no fucking way do I consider this outcome a win. There was no winning this election unfortunately and thats precisely the fucking problem. But alas democrats decided committing genocide, arresting their enthusiastic base for protesting, fucking over the working class, and shitting on the people warning them about these issues come voting are winning strategies.
😮💨🤷
And you decided lesser evil wasn’t lesser enough? Now we get greater evil.
Your words not mine. You failed to convince 20 million people with that argument, harris failed to convince 20 million people to show up using it after blowing a billion dollars.
Harris lost 25 electoral points in two states out of the fucking gate using it.
Harris lost more for completely fucking ignoring the problems working Americans are feeling at home. A minor tax break after food has shot up 20-30% in four years? Fuck off.
She fucking managed to lose every swing state using it.
At what point do you fucking realize how absolutely fucking stupid of a play that reasoning is?
I dont need to argue this point anymore. You want answers look internally. Not to me, Ive spent the last year trying to get you deeebs to course correct. You failed to do so and as result you’ve earned trump.
Insanity:
- you
- Harris
- biden
- dnc
- doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
My punk rock lifetime bay area liberal 45 yr old friend voted Trump bc Israel.
I could say something witty or sarcastic, but you’ve probably already thought something along the same lines. I’ll just leave a facepalm emoji instead.
🤦🏻♂️
Only in a two-party system. Locked in a two party system is the death of it. At least introduce multiple rounds, to democratically elect the 2 contestants for the final round…
Sometimes being a single issue voter happens because people just care that much about that one issue. But there’s a natural tendency for anyone’s decision to come down to one thing. Complex issues are complex, most people don’t know what’s right. But then they do have ONE thing that they consider black-and-white, so that influences their choice. It gives them something they feel they can say to others “I just can’t bring myself to vote for someone who XYZ…”
Because let’s face it: no one wants to hear your entire list of political calculations. People’s choices are absolutely influenced by thoughts of how they’ll justify themselves to the people they know. And having one big pithy thing to say is more convenient than a subtle position based on a score of factors.
Humans are social, emotional, idiosyncratic shortcut machines, not logic engines.
Radicals ruin everything.
Thing is you can actually be radical. In a healthy democracy you need some small fringes to exert pressure, e.g. civil right activist groups and so on so that the government isn’t able to just completely ignore portions of the population.
But to be effective as an activist you have to know when to put on pressure and when to unite. Malcolm X or Fred Hampton didn’t go vote for David Duke just because MLK was a pacifist.
This was the wrong time to pressure because as always activists dramatically misread the levels of actual support for their cause and dramatically underestimate how much support the general populace gives the opposition.
Most people don’t even agree on the very basic facts of reality or that such a thing can even exist and that for instance pretty certain observations made using the scientific method aren’t just equally weighed to someone’s opinion, how tf are you gonna expect to convince them of anything? What you gonna write some long post on it? Good luck - they literally cannot read.
Humanity is just a dogshit species. To even agree that we shouldn’t stab ourselves in our proverbial balls with a proverbial milwaukee power drill - it takes like generations and most people are always for the status quo and the worst possible version of everything is the default we have to work from and with, it’s just a cruel joke and it would be more existentially comforting if progress was outright impossible.
It was absolutely the correct time to pressure. Harris/dnc/biden miscalculated.
Huh? You really think that if they caved on Palestine they would’ve won? Most Americans support the guy who wants to impose Muslim travel bans
Imagine thinking someone needs to cave on not being genocidal. Jesus fucking christ.
- students were arrested under their watch, a key demographic for them in a tight race. Students are often motivated canvassers. Their response to the outcry? There must be order. Get bent biden/harris.
- they lost 25 electoral points in two fucking swing states directly related to this. In literal numbers codified in the outcome.
- they completely fucking ignored the economic issues caused by corporate greed. Fun fact kellogs is charging over 100% more for fucking corn flakes than the store brand. CORN FLAKES.
Most Americans support the guy who wants to impose Muslim travel bans.
Sigh. You didnt do well in math did you? Tell me where did the 20 million votes for biden last time go? Trumps numbers are unchanged. Oh right, they didnt show up. 🤔
Never mind the fucking fact most adults dont vote. So no most Americans dont support trump. They just dont think either party is worth their emotional energy. Good job democrats! 🤔
And token handle the rest of your nonsense with the polling numbers.
students were arrested under their watch, a key demographic for them in a tight race. Students are often motivated canvassers. Their response to the outcry? There must be order. Get bent biden/harris.
Yes and most people support that. They see you as more unhinged than the anti-police protestors and think Trump must be onto something with demolishing the DoE if the nation students are protesting for who they see as Islamist terrorists.
they lost 25 electoral points in two fucking swing states directly related to this. In literal numbers codified in the outcome.
Source?
they completely fucking ignored the economic issues caused by corporate greed
Yeah that’s socialism. They already lost the Latino vote by being too socialist. The electorate wants tax breaks for Kelogg’s CEO.
Sigh. You didnt do well in math did you? Tell me where did the 20 million votes for biden last time go?
Some of them probably to Trump.
Trumps numbers are unchanged.
Are you an idiot? You’re implying that these are the exact same people just because the numbers are roughly the same?
Biden convinced a lot of swing voters due to COVID.
Never mind the fucking fact most adults dont vote.
Source?
And token handle the rest of your nonsense with the polling numbers.
Token handle? Like JRR Tolkien? Did you have a stroke?
source
Please see yourself to any election results site for Wisconsin and Michigan, look at the results differential, look at the 3rd party votes, then go back the the primaries and look at the uncommited numbers from the primary.
Source? (Most dont vote)
See yourself to any american census page, find the adult population numbers, then look at the gross voters for this election. Do some basic math and you’ll end up with 25-30% of the voting population voted.
Are you an idiot?
Possibly but you most definitely are. You dont know basic well known facts about demographics of Michigan and Wisconsin, you ask for sources for literally common knowledge facts that are both widely reported and easily confirmed.
And no i didnt claim they were the exact same people you twit. I was pointing out he had relatively similar levels of total support in fucking aggregate. ~72mill.
Biden convinced a lot of swing voters due to COVID.
No, 20 million voters didnt show up this cycle because harris brought nothing to the tablento motivate them. In fact she mainly brought dismotivation via a genocide and lack of economic policies.
Token handle? Like JRR Tolkien? Did you have a stroke?
No, its the other person who responded to your absolutely trash of a post with a link to some polls.
Okay we’re done here. Nothing productive will be had with furthering a conversation with someone as uninformed, and in lacking basic reasoning skills as yourself.
The numbers don’t lie.
The Muslim vote in the end stayed literally the same, so did the Jewish vote. Most Americans prolly haven’t even heard of all this shit lol
Naïve/entitled people fail to grasp the concept of compromise.
Exactly whatbwas the compromise? The entire genocide/atrocity has occured om herself and Biden’s watch. She then failed to disance herself from the policy and did not take a position that aligned with people concerned about supporting a genocide.
Is Trump worse on this topic? Almost certainly.
Entitled people are the ones that felt they could speak over the valid concerns of the public because “I am the lesser of two evils so you have to vote for me.” Turned out well, the US continues its fownward trajectory and to be an embarrassment all because of…supporting a genocide. It wasnt even a difficult one, a remedial foreign policy issue fucked Kamala and she can have her shame for it.
The entitled people are those who insist the conscientious objectors should have put their concerns aside.
Is genocide not too far to compromise on? Or is it less of an issue because it’s a genocide of Arabs?
Which do you choose: genocide or WORSE genocide? You have to pick one. Not picking either gets you the latter by default. Make a choice.
Turns out there are stupid questions.
It’s a stupid question. But that’s the reality. So genocide or worse genocide? If you say neither, it’s probably going to be worse genocide.
Some people really don’t grasp the concept of the trolley problem.
A train is headed towards 5 people, you can pull a lever and switch tracks to kill 1 person. What do you do?
What group of people could Democrats kill that would leave you unable to support either party? Clearly, it’s not Arabs.
More people than the Republicans would. And then I would vote Republican. Because that’s the choice on election day.
Edit: if all you’re doing is not voting, you do nothing to help anyone. If you are actually helping in meaningful ways, then voting to pick the easier opponent does not undermine your work.
There’s absolutely no logical reason to believe that. Democrats have escalated war on three fronts with nuclear armed superpowers, and armed a genocide.
The arguments are as stupid as you guessed.
These are naive emotional people who are dumb as fuck. I know so many in my life and it’s like arguying with a brick wall.
Children still believe we live in a black and white world, democrats are in power now, genocide is happening, they will not vote for them. The concept that both will finance the genocide but another will be much worse is not something they can understand.
You have others that want to intentionally punish democrats for not doing anything. Great in the meantime, Trump will provide a full carte blanche to Nettanyahu in the middle east, he will continue what he’s doing, annex everything without any limits. They were partying in Israel after Trump won.
A third group wants the system to break down because they think if you’re a post collapse society, they will be able to build their utopia.
Yes as dumb idiots living in la la land.
They would rather accelerate genocide than admit they’re wrong. It’s disgusting
Then work to change it. Your voting system is broken and makes millions feel disenfranchised. People should be able to vote their conscience without worrying about stupid political games.
I’ve criticized then for their voting behavior as well - that if they want outcomes aligned to their values that dictates a particular voting strategy.
But you don’t get to blame them for the outcome. That’s on the broken system, and the failure of the losing party to appeal to them.
They share the blame. This election was lost because of low voter turnout and so many will suffer for it. This wasn’t the electoral college, this wasn’t voter fraud, people had the opportunity to fill in a bubble to stop the proud fascists and they chose not to.
It’s not surprising that people don’t show up to vote if they don’t believe they have a voice. Provide proper representation for them rather than the slightly different shades of purple on offer now. Allow them to voice the nuance of their positions and you’d probably have Kamala as the president elect right now.
This is just the trolley problem - you’re trying to force them to pull a lever when many people feel that the only moral choice is not to.
Give them a way to participate and they’ll be able to weigh the options.
Because the standard for Democrats is perfectionism, but the standard for Republicans is “That’s just Trump being Trump.”
In other words, they didn’t think it through, they got suckered by propaganda.
Imagine thinking “stop committing a genocide” is perfection.
Liberals are amazing creatures.
trump will be 100x worse.
Make that argument to the family members of people experiencing the genocide, I would imagine they will laugh in your face. These people are enduring unimaginable horrors, their children are being brutally murdered and libs keep telling them to suck it up because actually this is the lesser of evils.
It’s a pathetic fucking argument.
Are yiu talking about Gaza? Trump wants Bennie to destroy Palestine. Ets see the looks on their faces then.
Is 100x worse mean genociding 100 times faster? Because if you are not really living in a cave, you will know there can’t be anything worse than what’s already happening.
Dems are always so fast to point out propaganda but how did this brainwashing slip in? There’s no worse or better genocide, you freak.
I’m not an American nor a trump supporter, just an American hater.
They believe it because that’s what people have been told to believe.
It should be glaringly obvious that trump’s implied policy that he will let Israel “finish the job” is far worse than the dems poor attempts at negotiating cease-fires or any other moderation on Israel’s aggression.
All the propaganda has focused on the democrat (in)action regarding Israel. Zero on trump’s plans.
That’s what the propaganda machine has been pushing.
That’s what the propaganda machine has been pushing.
And there was a strong push from the Russians.
That’s because nobody believes biden/Harris and for good reason. They’re lying, they have just as much of a plan to turn Gaza into prime oceanfront real estate for wealthy NYC metro area zionists with dual citizenship as the republicans. They’ll just paint the bombs with progress pride and blm flags while lying to your face about their intentions and speaking out of both sides of their mouth depending on their audience. It’s sickening. They’re both going to genocide Palestinians, does it really matter if they’re turned to glass in days or in weeks?
Since no one seems to be taking OP’s question seriously, I’ll take a stab at this. There are a variety of reasons.
Some people feel that voting is offering material support to a specific candidate or system, and they simply cannot bring themselves to do so given the horrors that that person or system is either supporting or failing to condemn.
Others may feel that strategically withholding their vote as a punishment may motivate democrats to take these types of issues more seriously in the future.
Or they may feel that their vote is more impactful in magnifying the voice and power of third parties who offer more meaningful solutions to end the killing, even if they won’t win.
Others still may believe that Trump’s incompetence will accelerate the end of America imperialism and lead to a better global political situation sometime in the future.
Finally, some people feel that voting won’t matter at all and is a distraction from efforts to directly slow or stop the war machine.
I don’t personally endorse any of these viewpoints, but some are relatively serious positions and others are not, in my opinion.
Others may feel that strategically withholding their vote as a punishment may motivate democrats to take these types of issues more seriously in the future.
They never learn though.
They never learn though.
And we’re out of chances for them to do so.
Don’t worry. Trump won. You’ll hear a whole lot less about Gaza and genocide now.
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its funny, because literally the next post after yours was this: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/07/trump-blank-check-netanyahu-war-iran-panetta
Because if it wasn’t Gaza, it would have been another excuse to not lift a lazy goddamned finger and still delude themselves into feeling "morally superior"while sitting on their fat mediocre asses at home.
Before Harris, they also leaned heavily on the “Sleepy Joe” bullshit and “two old white men up for election, who cares”. Once the old “Sleepy Joe” element was removed from the equation, they had to find a way to keep their goddamned stubbornly lazy and ignorant narrative intact.
Now that the election is over, most of these “concerned and outraged” deadweight assholes will never think about Gaza and the plight of its’ people again. And they will keep on feeling smug about themselves.
I know one of those people. they are now angry the left lost… 🙄
I’m not American, and I don’t agree with these people either, but I don’t think that calling them lazy and ignorant makes any sense. In the fucked up democracy of the US it’s clear that the only way to get what you want for the coming 4 years is to vote for the least bad candidate. At the same time I can definitely understand that if you view both candidates was horrible, though one way more horrible than the other, you would feel conflicted about voting for either of them.
Let’s do a thought experiment. Assuming both candidates are still roughly equally “popular”. If both candidates wanted to start a genocide, but one would want to kill only 50% of the amount of innocents that the other would kill, how would you vote? Would you vote for the one who is overall the less bad option, which will in turn make you give your vote for something horrible. Or would you abstain and signal that the democracy as it currently stands has lost your confidence entirely, even if it means that on the short term the consequences might be way worse?
Not voting actually costs the democrats something, and should (if they want to win next time) force them to think how to better represent you next time.
It’s fucked up that your democracy came to this. It has become an annoying game theory dilemma instead of voting for the candidate that you actually believe in. Our system here in the Netherlands is certainly also not perfect, since we have too many parties and too long coalition negotiations, but at least I feel like it represents people way better. Anyone can start a party and capture seat if they represent a large enough niche.
I said the same thing about people like you before the election, and I’ll repeat it again. The laser focus on single issue voters was and will always be mostly an excuse to blame someone else.
To look at it another way, if this one issue actually decided the election, why didn’t Harris change her strategy two months ago? … Maybe it’s because this wasn’t the determining issue. Or it was, and her staff was incompetent. Take your pick.
It is rich to criticize the Democrats for claiming moral superiority while doing nothing, as a justification for not voting for the candidate who would at least try to put a leash on what Israel is doing to Gaza.
If you want what’s best for a suffering people, you should vote for the candidate not trying to give their oppressors a blank check. All of America is responsible for what the president we chose does next.
OP asked for a steelman but good try
This is all that needs to be said on the subject.
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A lot of people did in fact set aside Gaza until Trump was stopped. As for those that didn’t, they should have listened to Bernie Sanders. I did months ago and went all-in on Dem support. There were multiple times when I wrote up an angry post about US support of Israel and then didn’t post it because I didn’t want to turn a voter into a non-voter or worse a Trump supporter.
I understand their position of never rewarding ethnic cleansing and war crimes though. They chose to make sure the Dems know they would never “settle” for the illegal killing of civilians. The support for Israel made it especially hard for Arab Americans to vote Dem. It’s difficult to support a party that has been in power during the whole conflict yet gives unconditional support for the internationally condemned murder of Arabs.
I’m sure a lot also felt disenfranchised by the bipartisan protest suppression and condemnation. Even in Dem states peaceful protesters were punished, and sometimes pro-Israeli protesters who attacked got away with it. Then there was the whole “vote with us or else” pressure that went on for months. Dissenters like the “uncommitted” voters were insulted by the party that wanted their unconditional support.
So it’s not like it’s completely insane. But as Sanders points out that position only makes things worse and has done so.
To start, we have to understand that the genocide of Palestine started before the October 7th attacks. Israel’s rampant illegal settlements in the Gaza strip may have been the final straw that provoked Hamas to make a move, but Palestinians have been abused, forced into ghettos, and murdered by private citizens for decades. All of this, and nobody in the West ever really batted an eye at the suffering except for a handful of informed leftists.
If Harris had won, the most likely outcome is that the immediate conflict would eventually be paused, just like it paused after the second intifadas. No land would be returned, no settlements removed, but Hamas’ forces would be decimated to the point they could not fight back and Israel would return to their quiet slow genocide until the stars align to renew their attack once more.
Now that Trump has won, the most likely outcome is…that the immediate conflict will eventually pause, just like it paused after the second intifadas. Israel isn’t an island, if they ramp up their aggression ever further, eventually other parts of the world will push for sanctions on Israel. A Trump win doesn’t suddenly give Israel carte blanch to build the gas chambers, they still have to pay lip service to international law. Israel will inflict a grievous wound on Hamas, deep enough that it will take another generation before conflict resumes, and go back to expanding their settlements.
This genocide has been happening since before I was born, and multiple Democrat presidents have had an opportunity to say something or work towards curbing Israeli aggression. They’ve all vaguely promised to work towards a two-state solution, knowing that the current two states are what they want. If Kamala Harris couldn’t even call it a genocide, then she was no different, and it would be foolish to think she would actually take any steps towards meaningfully stopping Israel.
Well, iirc, trump mentioned something about wiping the Palestinians out himself (or something along those lines, I halfway forgot as trump says a lot of shit) so let’s just say that whatever the result it, it won’t be good for the Palestinians.
Also remember that trump is now surrounded by a religious extremists cult who is betting on Jesus coming back in Jerusalem, and they’ve been working for 4 years to prepare for Trump’s return and ehat they can do with a king with nukes
Talking about nukes, so this extremists cult is also betting on the world ending to make Jesus return sooo, yeah, nothing to see here.
Let’s see, what other ways will this destroy the world? Oh yeah, Ukraine will be fucked too, trump will just force it to surrender either now, or negotiate “peace” after which Russia either just goes on or zelenski falls out of a window. with that done, the Baltics will be next for putin, don’t doubt it. Poland and Czech Republic may follow. What else? Taiwan will be fucked now too so wars all over, yeeeiii.
What other fin can we expect? Climate change is a hoax too, right? Multiple point of no return came and went and shits about to get a lot worse a lot faster
Fuck America, and fuck the majority of Americans, you have ended the world. That basically includes anyone who didn’t vote for Harris.
Israel will inflict a grievous wound on Hamas, deep enough that it will take another generation before conflict resumes, and go back to expanding their settlements.
Expanding settlements is continuing the violent conflict, just not as open warfare.
So, you’re counting on Trump, known for racist, anti-Muslim rhetoric, will do no different than Harris? Ridiculous. Trump doesn’t care, and it’s clear Bibi doesn’t care.
Also, that doesn’t tell me how that protest vote does anything. If the result is the same, then at least go for the person that won’t destroy even more lives.
I’m not counting on Trump for anything. I’m expecting other member states of the UN and especially the EU to act as the actual hard line for Israel, as they have for the past five decades. It’s already starting to happen, and once sanctions are in place Bibi will finally start to become unpopular and can finally be replaced.
It’d be very nice if those sanctions started with the U.S., but it was never going to happen under either party. The number of lives lost will be the same. The U.S. has never been what has stopped Israel, it has always been global perception.
I’m betting he helps complete the genocide. And I no longer have any sympathy for it.
Couldn’t hide the mask for long eh
I feel that way because you helped Trump.
I’m an asian living in asia.
For context for others, this freak was calling for genocide of Palestinians because his incompetent party loosed to a guy with 40 or so criminal cases. Catch a clue idiot.
Lies! I’m not calling for genocide. I oppose genocide, I oppose the war. But the fact people like you think Trump is the same as Harris erodes that sympathy.
The arguments against voting in the USA sound similar to the trolley problem
Some people wouldnt choose to be the reason of the death of one person even if doing nothing causes the death of multiple people
That just means you value your own ability to evade blame over the lives of real people.
Yeah but also they all die anyway. Nobody is “saved” in this situation. In fact, it’s way worse now.
What’s going to happen in Gaza is going to be horrifying.
It wasn’t horrifying until now? Maybe they weren’t white or part of your propaganda.
This is very american - these Gaza supporters protest the suffering of people thousands of miles away and yet think it is okay to bring suffering to everyone in his/her own street
Almost like they are paying for the people suffering thousands of miles away?
Do you have a brain by any chance?
Yes, this is how I felt. I would rather not choose to vote for the ‘lesser of two evils’ and pretend that’s good. It’s not just Gaza though, it’s corporatism, war profiteering, and terrible policy.
I would rather see the system collapse and possibly die in the process than support another shitty government even if it’s the less shitty one.
That’s a horrible outlook, and I’m sorry you’ve been driven to that point. I understand, as I have been there before.
Now that I’m older, I realize that pulling the lever is the right thing to do as much as it hurts. I don’t think letting apathy win and watching the government go full Fash was the correct choice, but I don’t blame you, or others who decided the same. The system isn’t going to collapse, though, it’s just going to get a lot shittier for awhile.
