“Translation: all the times Tesla has vowed that all of its vehicles would soon be capable of fully driving themselves may have been a convenient act of salesmanship that ultimately turned out not to be true.”
Another way to say that, is Tesla scammed all of their customers, since you know, everyone saw this coming…
This smacks of the hyperloop, a false product offered to suppress support of other competing products.
Id est, a high-capital entity using their power to suppress competiton for smaller (more sincere) interests.
Never buy a product for a non existent feature that’s promised in update.
I believe that some technological ideas can work. The problem is that ideas that are under people like Musk, are doomed to always fail and will be seen as negative.
Elon Musk sucks.
As ever, things that succeed with Musk as the figurehead succeed despite him not because of him.
The problem is that ideas that are under people like musk, are doomed to always fail
Like electric cars, like reusable rockets…
People also shouldn’t sell things to end users before they’ve invented them
This was the inevitable result even years ago. When self-driving cars were the hot topic and several companies were doing their own thing, that’s when it should have been obvious it was never going to happen. It’s not a problem any one independent company was ever going to solve, especially quickly. For to work it would have to be an open source, global standard with several companies working together.
I mean you’d have to build out a massive amount of infrastructure to further support it. All vehicles would have to have a module in it that would communicate with everything else around it, regardless if it was self-driving or not. There can’t be a premium model, or a subscription, ect., it would need to just be there and work.
The overall task to get this done was never going to be quick, easy, or cheap. This was always going to be bigger than any one single company and a handful of engineers. It’s going to take the effort of many companies and governments all working selflessly.
The thing with (full) self-driving is that the edge cases are the challenge. Driving is the Pareto Principle really cranked up: (fully made up numbers) 2% of the driving represents 90% of the difficulty. And highway driving is a much simpler task to be automated than driving on a stroad, weird intersections, unprotected turns, etc.
I think we are a long ways off from full self-driving, and highway driving capabilities of current vehicles only address what is by far the easiest scenario. And even there those capabilities are limited from what I’ve seen.
He’s just trying to sell the upgrade so people will throw away their old cars and buy new ones. But that already happened with the last version and it still can’t do it. This won’t be any different with him in charge. Put an engineer in charge, invest in the tech, and you might get there. But Tesla is not going to ever get there while it needs to sell every incremental advance in tech rather than spending time and money on lots of iterations of prototypes that don’t need to be mass produced.
Lol put an engineer in charge! Hahaha what a ridiculous idea. Can’t have engineers in charge of businesses! Would never happen
Oh, so it turns out that “genius billionaires” only exist in comic books?
Nobody could have seen that one coming!
He and Trump deserve each other.
I think his intense commitment to getting Trump elected makes more sense when you consider this article.
His enormous wealth is largely stored in the form of Tesla stock, and that stock has been valued based on the belief that it isn’t a car company, it’s a robotaxi service currently selling the hardware to finance the software development. The value – and his wealth – can persist indefinitely as long as investors continue to accept that premise, no matter how long delayed. But if something tangibly undermines that premise, Musk could conceivably lose the majority of his wealth overnight.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Agency is probably the greatest threat to his wealth. He doesn’t worry about competitors or protestors or Twitter users or advertisers. They’re all just petty nuisances. But the federal regulator over roads… that is his proverbial killer snail. And I think fully capturing the entire federal regulatory state is his strategy to permanently confine that snail.
More than anything else, I think that’s what is motivating his radical embrace of fascism.
Aren’t they all motivated by wealth and greed?
Well any political choice will increase the wealth of the billionaire class in general. Ant candidate that is a threat to that will be smeared to dust before they get anywhere near power.
But Musk is going for the more direct approach, and tbh I think the second Trump gets power again he’ll have no need for Musk and will treat him like the parasite he is. He’s certainly done that before.
Sometimes I’m reminded that there’s always a chance that they go submarine diving or some such with another overconfident crony who thinks their skills got them where they are today.
I would like them to try to go to Mars this coming January. I am sure with enough fuel one of Elons rockets can get it moving in the right direction, they can wing everything else as they go.
I don’t think he would go submarine diving, it would be more in-character for him to try and fail a moon vacation.
Over Promise under deliver
First, let me clarify I bought my Tesla used, before Musk went full fascist, and autopilot came free. The car was updated to the newest hardware for free, since the original FSD equipment couldn’t do it either.
That out of the way, FSD sucks, and it’s getting worse, not better. When if first come out of beta it was okay. I remember describing it as driving with a teenager, they got the general idea, but would make bad decisions so you had to watch them. Years of updates later and it’s practically unusable to me. It tries to go way under or over the speed limit, it hesitates or slams on the brakes for green lights. It slams on the brakes for cars that pull out with plenty of gap but doesn’t even notice the risky merges. It can not seem to navigate intersections anymore, damn near stopping in the middle of a turn. It actually just updated yesterday and I tried it again, it took me less than 5 miles to disable it again. It is, in my opinion, a hazard to use. I talked to my partner about it and we both agree it didn’t used to be this bad.
Anyway, the stupidest part of all this, is they changed it so it’s either full self driving all the time or not. You want cruise while you’re in traffic because you know it’ll try to cut in front of someone? Silly idiot, no you don’t. So you now have to have a second profile* for cruise control and lane keep without FSD. And the odd thing is that lane keep and cruise are fine. They function like FSD used to. They can drive the highway with no problem and trust me, I do not have much faith in the car so I’m watching it close. It can’t navigate city streets, but neither can FSD…
TLDR, my car was a better deal for me than Tesla. After years of FSD access, it’s bad and getting worse, not better. I can’t believe people pay 5 figures for it and maybe that’s why they feel the need to clip perfect drives or defend it.
I remember describing it as driving with a teenager, they got the general idea, but would make bad decisions so you had to watch them.
This is worse than just driving yourself. I either need to be engaged in actively driving, or it really needs to be able to handle the task by itself.
It’s why I find the lane-keeping feature in my vehicle to be useful, but lane-centering is just too weird for me to use.
That out of the way, FSD sucks, and it’s getting worse, not better.
It’s almost like they bet on the AI to teach the AI, rather than continuing to pay for skilled engineers.
Buckle up folks, we’re going to see a lot more of this, across every industry, before the lawsuits go into high gear and anything gets better.
Since the first time I heard about FSD I’ve been wondering why Tesla (or others) doesn’t set up a system where drivers opt-in (no opt-in by default) to sending anonymized driving data to help train the model. The vast majority of the time, it’s probably modeling OK driving. At least no accidents. But the shitty driving and accidents are also useful as data about what to avoid.
Maybe they’re already doing this? But then I wonder why their FSD is getting shittier rather than improving. One would think with more driving data, good and bad examples, would only help.
I’ve been wondering why Tesla (or others) doesn’t set up a system where drivers opt-in (no opt-in by default) to sending anonymized driving data to help train the model.
That’s exactly how they train the model, but every Tesla is opted in with, to my knowledge, no option to opt out.
I would be shocked to discover they’re not already doing this.
Not enough paid humans sorting between which data is examples of good behaviour and which data is examples of bad behaviour. Not saying that is what is happening as we don’t even know if there is data, but that would be the weakness in that plan when run the way it would be run if instituted by elon.
Good point.
That’s what they do except for the opt in part.
It works well on freeways. I still don’t use it much on city streets except for the occasional shits and giggles. It has issues on non-divided highways and refuses to drive at my set speed limit.
Sounds like it’d be nice if you had real control over the car’s software, and you could roll it back.
This… also makes me a little more weary driving around Teslas in traffic.
wary=cautious
weary=tired
The stress of being wary for long periods of time will make you weary.
Some of us Tesla drivers refuse to use any of their bullshit auto-driving software (I don’t even use lane assist anymore) because of bad experiences so hopefully most of them are just driving normally. Which I do admit may not spark much confidence given how terrible some drivers are.
Fully agree. The sort of good news for driving around them is that most of my frustrations come from it being overly cautious and almost getting rear-ended because it decided to stop for a green light or some other odd decision. It’s rare to have it interact poorly with someone that is driving predictably. Like, cut it off without a signal and you have introduced something has not already accounted for. Driving alongside it on the highway, it sees you and knows where you are. But people are unpredictable and it only takes one mistake.
That out of the way, FSD sucks, and it’s getting worse, not better. When if first come out of beta it was okay. I remember describing it as driving with a teenager, they got the general idea, but would make bad decisions so you had to watch them. Years of updates later and it’s practically unusable to me. It tries to go way under or over the speed limit, it hesitates or slams on the brakes for green lights. It slams on the brakes for cars that pull out with plenty of gap but doesn’t even notice the risky merges. It can not seem to navigate intersections anymore, damn near stopping in the middle of a turn. It actually just updated yesterday and I tried it again, it took me less than 5 miles to disable it again. It is, in my opinion, a hazard to use. I talked to my partner about it and we both agree it didn’t used to be this bad.
Sounds like it still drives like a teenager!
Which of course is terrible since it should be improving over time.
I guess he’s talking about other upgrades like radar sensors and all the stuff that people told him from the get go.
they changed it so it’s either full self driving all the time or not
No they didn’t…you can still activate regular adaptive cruise control without any of the FSD nonsense.
Yes, I said that…
So you now have to have a second profile* for cruise control and lane keep without FSD.
No you don’t need a second profile for that, you can just pull down once on the right stalk to enable regular adaptive CC with lane keep instead of twice for FSD. This second profile requirement is complete nonsense.
The “pull once for FSD” that removes the regular adaptive CC is a voluntary option in the settings, you can just disable that. If you have that enabled and don’t like it, that’s your fault not theirs.
You are not correct. There are several forum posts complaining about this issue. One of which is linked below.
You can disable it on your profile, but to switch back and forth you have to stop the car, place it in park, switch to FSD, accept the agreements, re-apply all your personal settings for traffic lights and such. At this point, the double or single pull activation greys out and you are stuck with single pull, all or nothing FSD. When the car screws up and you don’t want FSD anymore, you must again navigate to the autopilot menu and disable it.
Or, like me, you can do this once in a safe location, save a second profile for FSD and switch immediately with two clicks from memory.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/fsd-12-5-4-no-longer-allows-double-click-to-start.334535/
Is there a reason you are so defensive?
I just find misinformation really annoying. Like, There’s loads of reasons to hate on Tesla and Elon Musk, there is no need to make up stuff that isn’t true, it just takes away from the actual lies and issues and drown out valid criticism.
I thought he said they would replace the modules to support FSD?
He did. Right in this article it says that they will upgrade the older models for free. This whole post is a circle jerk for Elon haters. I mean, I despise the guy as well but I don’t find distortions to be a useful outlet for that.
What we have is one generation of Tesla cars that might need a free hardware upgrade to fully deliver on the promises that were made.
What the post and most of the comments heard is “no Tesla can ever self drive and Elon scammed everyone and laughed to the bank.”
It’s just embarrassing. At this point I filter Elon content not only because I don’t want to hear what the jerk has done today, but because he whips people up into such a stupor so efficiently.
More like most of us don’t care to read past the headline.
It really is embarrassing. It’s a common theme on Lemmy, Reddit too but not the extremes in large casual subs.
Left and right both bullshit and exaggerate so many of these stories and it makes them both look like clowns.
But hey, I’m fully prepared for a bunch of downvotes because this place has the self reflection of a fucking mop.
P.s. May Biden become supreme overlord and drink the blood of all those who run on a ballot against him.
Can’t wait for the supporters to come out and gas light buyers instead: "uh, well of course they couldn’t. He didn’t lie you just don’t understand tech…!
I work in IT and people that think like that can fuck themselves. “What do you mean Meta lied by selling your data to a company you didn’t know about. Maybe you should just have never trusted Meta.”
Stupid fucking boot lickers.
To be fair to Meta, they did tell you they might do that. They didn’t lie. They just told you in the find print of an already convoluted and arcane legal document that they know most people would never read, fewer would understand, and no one could do anything to change.
So unlike Tesla, where they did lie about FSD’s capabilities, and that is at best false advertising but probably actually fraud, Meta at least had a thin veneer of plausible deniability against accusations of being liars when they sold your data to unknown third-parties because they did tell you about it, you just needed a law degree to understand what they were telling you.
Still no LiDAR.
https://www.theverge.com/2024/5/7/24151497/tesla-lidar-luminar-elon-musk-sensor-autonomous
Tesla bought over $2 million worth of lidar sensors from Luminar this year
It’s got something way better: LieAr
“Trust me, you just need to buy more compute for your car. We’ll figure out reliable driving by sight someday.”
I’m happily using all the sensors my car offers, even if I’m pretty ok with driving by eyesight. Better sensors that can easily see through fog/rain/snow/whatever? Hell yeah, give them to me.
LiDAR in particular actually kinda sucks at those conditions (basically any form of precipitation). It’s really only good in clear environments.
Elon Musks make engineering orders of magnitude more difficult. Those poor Tesla neoslaves
They were on the path of self driving cars till Musk pulled the plug on the LiDAR and opted for cameras (cost less). He is directly responsible for why autopilot isn’t so auto.
We’ll fix that, the car will be driving fully autonomously 2018, promise!
I personally don’t think it’s a matter of more sensory input. Whilst Lidar wouldn’t be a bad thing, autonomous cars are just a problem current technology can’t solve.
We already have road legal level 4 self driving cars for sale in Germany (Mercedes EQS and S Class), level 5 isnt far away.
If Tesla didn’t go the vision-only route they would probably also have level 4 autonomy by now
The vehicles with a higher automated driving rating than Tesla use a more diverse range of sensory inputs. While it may not make fully autonomous driving, it very clearly would have made Tesla closer to it based on the fact that cars that use things like lidar in addition to cameras surpassed Tesla’s rating many years ago.
I think there needs be car 2 car ( or even car 2 human f.e. in smartphones and wearables ) introduced before self driving cars is capable to exist. Of course until real AI is introduced. We’re nowhere near the human capable ai
Put glue on your accelerator.
Have you seen Waymo?
It is. The machine learning algorithm has maxed out its parameters because Elon decided to get rid of redundancy. The machine learning algorithm had to invent new algorithms to do what redundancy would have easily done in far fewer lines of code. They are out of compute power BECAUSE they decided to cheap out and removed redundancy.
It is to some degree. Lots of other new cars have lane keeping assist and automatic braking, BLIS, adaptive cruise control etc, and so on with more capable sensors and can for the most part drive without input from the driver better than the Tesla models with ultrasonic sensors or simply cameras. In fact the ones that rely solely on cameras absolutely do reportedly perform worse in testing. Musk was insistent that they could cheap out on the types of sensors used in order to make more profit and it shows. I don’t think it’s that tech cannot handle self driving currently. I think that it’s a numbers game where the firms attempting it want to do it as cheaply as possible while promising the moon and stars which they can’t deliver on a cheap budget. Vehicles like Ford’s (Blue Cruise) use all kinds of sensors including radar and GPS to allow for handsfree (not self driving) and it does work. The proofs of concept are out there in the world, but the costs to go from something like that to full self driving just doesn’t make it feasible for the average car manufacturer.
salesmanship
You mean false advertisement
Let’s not split hairs lol
Worse than that. Fraud. He’s scammed people out of millions.
Or just fraud
Right. Good salespeople listen to customers, not try to sell them something they a) don’t need or b) won’t work as advertised.
It’s pure grift.
Nah a judge determined it was just " puffery " and obviously he didn’t really mean self driving
My Leaf can handle itself on the highway and it’s the perfect amount of self driving that I want. I also didn’t need to pay half the price of the leaf for the privilege.
