Nah, don’t you understand? I’m literally designed to hunt and kill animals, just like other predators.
This gun? Well how else am i supposed to kill them? I don’t have any sort of claws or sharp teeth or anything designed to kill animals for sustinence
What do you mean why am i cooking the meat? I’ll get sick if i don’t, just like every other predator on the planet. Plus, i couldn’t even chew it if it were raw.
And all that is assuming natural = moral, which, if your moral code is equivilant to a lions, is not compatible with society. But it’s convenient to not change most people’s behavior, so they’re cool ignoring the logical conclusion of that argument.
Maybe that has nothing to do with your original argument. Maybe that has nothing to do with what’s in the meme that we’re discussing.
I’m gonna try to reel back my snark, i just deleted a bunch of stuff i wrote. I’ll just say it is good for people to try to eat less meat, but you aren’t helping your cause with the way you’re speaking here.
I’m not OP, I’m just here to stir the pot. You gotta read usernames more. I’m just pointing out that evolution is an ongoing process with no endpoint or goal.
Our ancestors fought their way to the top of the food chain over millions of years. It just feels wrong and ungrateful to eat a purely plant based diet. Like I’m betraying my own species.
I wouldn’t mind eating a vegan diet if there was a way to compensate. We could, for example, have a system where for every vegan meal sold someone strangles a small rodent.
Be the change you want to see in the world. Get some feeder rats from the snake store and rip ones head off with every meal. Bonus points for using teeths.
Just because we evolved a relatively recent ability to do something, doesn’t mean that thing is necessarily in our best interest. As I said elsewhere in this post, we have some capacity for omnivory at a high health cost, but that doesn’t change that our deeper roots have structured us for more plant-dominant lifestyles.
The reason we cook most meats is because capitalism dictates it should be produced the cheapest possible way, leading to contaminations and other nasty stuff in the meat that require cooking it. Even salmonella isn’t present in raw chicken if the chicken grew in a clean environment eating clean food.
Dude what the fuck are you on about? Wild animals carry parasites and other harmful microorganisms that cooking removes. Are you seriously implying that modern farming is the reason we cook our food?
I know that capitalism is the boogeyman on lemmy and is the cause of all things bad, but this one really takes the cake.
Why so aggressive? I realize my original comment was maybe not clear and lacked context because I honestly just typed it in a bit of a rush without thinking too hard about it, but that’s no reason to put words in my mouth and attack me.
Obviously, wild animals can carry parasites and we certainly started dying from food born illnesses much less often once we figured out to cook the meat, that’s so basic I didn’t even think my comment could be interpreted that way. But that has little to do with the topic (which was whether we can digest raw meat) and ignores the myriad of dishes that are made of raw meat like steak tartare, torisashi, charcuterie, carpaccio, sushi, poisson cru a la tahitienne, etc etc.
The common theme of all these dishes is the meat is of high quality, butchered and prepared well (Vs minced meat full of cow shit because they don’t bother butchering them properly, for example). That was my only point.
Your statement, “Even salmonella isn’t present in raw chicken […]” implies that wild fowl–animals that don’t have to worry about sanitary conditions in modern, industrial farming–would be safe to eat raw. Taking sushi and sashimi as another example, that’s safe(-ish) only because they use ocean fish; there’s no freshwater sushi because freshwater fish carry parasites that can infect humans, and so isn’t safe, even from the most pristine lakes and streams in the world.
I’d say that modern farming–when the best practices are used–is the reason we’re able to eat things raw at all. When you look at feces from Romans up through late medieval Europeans, you see that most humans had all kinds of nasty intestinal parasites. (Also, a certain amount of parasitic infection seems to be good, because it keeps your autoimmune system from always being on ultra-high alert.)
Yes that’s fair, I can see how it was interpreted that way. The chicken example I had in mind was a specific one, and the chickens aren’t wild at all just well cared for and extreme care is given to the preparation, I didn’t have wild animals in mind at all which carry a whole bunch of other well known risks, only ones that are farmed in good conditions and used to prepare raw meat dishes every day across the globe.
People do a lot of dumb shit. Some hunters still have a ritual of making a first-time hunter eat a raw heart from their first kill, which sounds like a great way to end up with a raging parasitic infection to me.
The most dangerous meats are ones originating from wild animals. Eg there are all sorts of nasty parasite cysts in wild boar meat. Nature is brutal and there is no such thing as “clean” meat from wild animals. Human inability to deal with this and becoming severely sick without thoroughly cooking the wild meat is evidence that even if we technically are somewhere on omnivore spectrum, we’re not really good omnivores—certainly not as good as bears or even boars. Honestly, eating insects, honey and eggs in addition to plants (fruit specifically) seems more like what we’re evolved to do.
Saw an article recently about a whole family that god worms in their brains from eating undercooked bear.
That said, best speculation right now is that it was our ability to use fire that allowed us to evolve to where we are now, because we were able to pre-digest food by cooking it, and also have a very-high protein diet that allowed our brains to evolve to where they are now.
The most dangerous meats are ones originating from wild animals. Eg there are all sorts of nasty parasite cysts in wild boar meat. Nature is brutal and there is no such thing as “clean” meat from wild animals. Human inability to deal with this and becoming severely sick without thoroughly cooking the wild meat is evidence that even if we technically are somewhere on omnivore spectrum, we’re not really good omnivores—certainly not as good as bears or even boars. Honestly, eating insects, honey and eggs in addition to plants (fruit specifically) seems more like what we’re evolved to do.
So your model of capitalism is that one can either provide value or make a profit, but not both because they’re opposing forces?
No man. The “free” part of the term “free market” means nobody has to buy shitty products.
It’s why we’re surrounded by abundant, diverse, high quality food: the only way to succeed under capitalism is to provide more value for the dollar than your competitors.
Somehow people think free markets cause a lack of alignment between what people value and what happens, but that’s exactly the opposite of what’s true.
Yes, because we evolved to eat body parts from animals who were raised in laboratory conditions? Get real, the majority of infectious outbreaks have a zoonotic origin. Covid was caused by carnists, and so is h5n1. You can’t have any animal domestication without an increase of pathogens.
And as others have already said here, all other sources of animal foods are also unclean, because animals are unclean. Your idea of clean meat could only come from a laboratory - lab-grown animal-free meat, for example.
Ok buddy, guess I’m dead from all the charcuterie, steak tartare, carpaccio and sushi I’ve eaten in my life and typing this from hell (obviously wouldn’t be heaven, what with the meat eating and all).
I’m just assuming that you are, in fact, aware that the likely primary advantage of inventing cooking was that the food is partially broken down before we consume it, meaning we need much less time and energy digesting it, which leaves us with more time to do other things, which is a huge evolutionary advantage. Right? Of course, every child knows that most animals spend a significant amount of time just digesting food, far more than humans.
Well, since you’re clearly a well educated person that knows these things, I can’t find any other reasoning behind what you posted here than that you’re arguing in bad faith, or trolling. Please either read a book or stop trolling. In any case, don’t post about shit you know nothing about.
So why did you waste two paraphs arguing it’s not natural if you consider that irrelevant?
I am sympathetic with veganism and I am working on reducing my meat consumption. Of all the arguments for veganism, “eating meat is not natural” is not one of them.
Nah, don’t you understand? I’m literally designed to hunt and kill animals, just like other predators.
This gun? Well how else am i supposed to kill them? I don’t have any sort of claws or sharp teeth or anything designed to kill animals for sustinence
What do you mean why am i cooking the meat? I’ll get sick if i don’t, just like every other predator on the planet. Plus, i couldn’t even chew it if it were raw.
And all that is assuming natural = moral, which, if your moral code is equivilant to a lions, is not compatible with society. But it’s convenient to not change most people’s behavior, so they’re cool ignoring the logical conclusion of that argument.
This is not a valid argument. We literally evolved to use tools. And humans absolutely can eat raw meat
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/blogs/national-museum-of-natural-history/2021/12/09/meet-the-scientist-studying-how-humans-started-eating-meat/
Maybe we evolved to use our brains to make and use tools. Maybe we’re currently evolving to use our brains to eat fewer animals.
Maybe that has nothing to do with your original argument. Maybe that has nothing to do with what’s in the meme that we’re discussing.
I’m gonna try to reel back my snark, i just deleted a bunch of stuff i wrote. I’ll just say it is good for people to try to eat less meat, but you aren’t helping your cause with the way you’re speaking here.
I’m not OP, I’m just here to stir the pot. You gotta read usernames more. I’m just pointing out that evolution is an ongoing process with no endpoint or goal.
Our ancestors fought their way to the top of the food chain over millions of years. It just feels wrong and ungrateful to eat a purely plant based diet. Like I’m betraying my own species.
I wouldn’t mind eating a vegan diet if there was a way to compensate. We could, for example, have a system where for every vegan meal sold someone strangles a small rodent.
Be the change you want to see in the world. Get some feeder rats from the snake store and rip ones head off with every meal. Bonus points for using teeths.
Just because we evolved a relatively recent ability to do something, doesn’t mean that thing is necessarily in our best interest. As I said elsewhere in this post, we have some capacity for omnivory at a high health cost, but that doesn’t change that our deeper roots have structured us for more plant-dominant lifestyles.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-problem-with-the-paleo-diet-argument/
We evolved to be susceptible to tobacco addiction. Also, tobacco smoking is an ancient human tradition.
The reason we cook most meats is because capitalism dictates it should be produced the cheapest possible way, leading to contaminations and other nasty stuff in the meat that require cooking it. Even salmonella isn’t present in raw chicken if the chicken grew in a clean environment eating clean food.
Dude what the fuck are you on about? Wild animals carry parasites and other harmful microorganisms that cooking removes. Are you seriously implying that modern farming is the reason we cook our food?
I know that capitalism is the boogeyman on lemmy and is the cause of all things bad, but this one really takes the cake.
Why so aggressive? I realize my original comment was maybe not clear and lacked context because I honestly just typed it in a bit of a rush without thinking too hard about it, but that’s no reason to put words in my mouth and attack me.
Obviously, wild animals can carry parasites and we certainly started dying from food born illnesses much less often once we figured out to cook the meat, that’s so basic I didn’t even think my comment could be interpreted that way. But that has little to do with the topic (which was whether we can digest raw meat) and ignores the myriad of dishes that are made of raw meat like steak tartare, torisashi, charcuterie, carpaccio, sushi, poisson cru a la tahitienne, etc etc.
The common theme of all these dishes is the meat is of high quality, butchered and prepared well (Vs minced meat full of cow shit because they don’t bother butchering them properly, for example). That was my only point.
Your statement, “Even salmonella isn’t present in raw chicken […]” implies that wild fowl–animals that don’t have to worry about sanitary conditions in modern, industrial farming–would be safe to eat raw. Taking sushi and sashimi as another example, that’s safe(-ish) only because they use ocean fish; there’s no freshwater sushi because freshwater fish carry parasites that can infect humans, and so isn’t safe, even from the most pristine lakes and streams in the world.
I’d say that modern farming–when the best practices are used–is the reason we’re able to eat things raw at all. When you look at feces from Romans up through late medieval Europeans, you see that most humans had all kinds of nasty intestinal parasites. (Also, a certain amount of parasitic infection seems to be good, because it keeps your autoimmune system from always being on ultra-high alert.)
Yes that’s fair, I can see how it was interpreted that way. The chicken example I had in mind was a specific one, and the chickens aren’t wild at all just well cared for and extreme care is given to the preparation, I didn’t have wild animals in mind at all which carry a whole bunch of other well known risks, only ones that are farmed in good conditions and used to prepare raw meat dishes every day across the globe.
If only more people were really aware of the health risks of consuming undercooked wild meat…
People do a lot of dumb shit. Some hunters still have a ritual of making a first-time hunter eat a raw heart from their first kill, which sounds like a great way to end up with a raging parasitic infection to me.
Another common theme of all those dishes is you never eat those things in communist countries.
The most dangerous meats are ones originating from wild animals. Eg there are all sorts of nasty parasite cysts in wild boar meat. Nature is brutal and there is no such thing as “clean” meat from wild animals. Human inability to deal with this and becoming severely sick without thoroughly cooking the wild meat is evidence that even if we technically are somewhere on omnivore spectrum, we’re not really good omnivores—certainly not as good as bears or even boars. Honestly, eating insects, honey and eggs in addition to plants (fruit specifically) seems more like what we’re evolved to do.
Saw an article recently about a whole family that god worms in their brains from eating undercooked bear.
That said, best speculation right now is that it was our ability to use fire that allowed us to evolve to where we are now, because we were able to pre-digest food by cooking it, and also have a very-high protein diet that allowed our brains to evolve to where they are now.
The most dangerous meats are ones originating from wild animals. Eg there are all sorts of nasty parasite cysts in wild boar meat. Nature is brutal and there is no such thing as “clean” meat from wild animals. Human inability to deal with this and becoming severely sick without thoroughly cooking the wild meat is evidence that even if we technically are somewhere on omnivore spectrum, we’re not really good omnivores—certainly not as good as bears or even boars. Honestly, eating insects, honey and eggs in addition to plants (fruit specifically) seems more like what we’re evolved to do.
So your model of capitalism is that one can either provide value or make a profit, but not both because they’re opposing forces?
No man. The “free” part of the term “free market” means nobody has to buy shitty products.
It’s why we’re surrounded by abundant, diverse, high quality food: the only way to succeed under capitalism is to provide more value for the dollar than your competitors.
Somehow people think free markets cause a lack of alignment between what people value and what happens, but that’s exactly the opposite of what’s true.
Yes, because we evolved to eat body parts from animals who were raised in laboratory conditions? Get real, the majority of infectious outbreaks have a zoonotic origin. Covid was caused by carnists, and so is h5n1. You can’t have any animal domestication without an increase of pathogens.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis
Who talked about laboratory conditions? Just normal conditions like being outside, instead of the pool of shit battery chickens are raised in.
And as others have already said here, all other sources of animal foods are also unclean, because animals are unclean. Your idea of clean meat could only come from a laboratory - lab-grown animal-free meat, for example.
Ok buddy, guess I’m dead from all the charcuterie, steak tartare, carpaccio and sushi I’ve eaten in my life and typing this from hell (obviously wouldn’t be heaven, what with the meat eating and all).
I’m just assuming that you are, in fact, aware that the likely primary advantage of inventing cooking was that the food is partially broken down before we consume it, meaning we need much less time and energy digesting it, which leaves us with more time to do other things, which is a huge evolutionary advantage. Right? Of course, every child knows that most animals spend a significant amount of time just digesting food, far more than humans.
Well, since you’re clearly a well educated person that knows these things, I can’t find any other reasoning behind what you posted here than that you’re arguing in bad faith, or trolling. Please either read a book or stop trolling. In any case, don’t post about shit you know nothing about.
So why did you waste two paraphs arguing it’s not natural if you consider that irrelevant?
I am sympathetic with veganism and I am working on reducing my meat consumption. Of all the arguments for veganism, “eating meat is not natural” is not one of them.
I had raw meat for dinner today.