In the post shared by Musk, the account lamented the presence of humanitarian groups in the Mediterranean Sea that rescue migrants from distressed vessels.
“These NGOs are subsidized by the German government,” the account posted. “Let’s hope AfD wins the elections to stop this European suicide.”
Elon Musk is a Nazi.
He endorses a party with Nazis in the highest positions. Bernd/Björn Höcke is the leader of the Thuringian AfD and courts decided that he’s a nazi. Not a right wing extremist, a fucking nazi.
AfD members have called for a second Holocaust (Marcel Grauf and an unknown talker at a party conference), the execution of refugees (Dieter Görnert), the imprisonment of homosexuals (Andreas Gehlmann), the creation of a new SA (Andreas Geithe), the imprisonment of left wingers in Buchenwald, a former concentration camp (Mirko Welsch) and most probably Musks favourite: Germany practicing apartheid (Holger Arrpe).
10-15 years ago I remember being told that Nazism couldn’t take hold again in Germany because of all the laws, and the education in schools about Nazis, and stigma, and people who would fist-fight Nazis in the street if they saw right-wing symbols.
Was I sold an optimistic outlook or has the situation just changed that drastically since then?
As a non-German who is particularly not keen about Nazism but who doesn’t speak enough German to keep a closer eye on it over there, I’m grateful for your name and shame overview.
There always has been a solid 15% of the German population that is lost to democracy and favours fascist and extremely right-wing politics. This “nazi” foundation has always been well established in many governmental bodies and economic branches as they were necessary to keep the country running after the end of WW2.
Now they are employing the same tactics as before 1945: stimulating fear among disadvantaged population groups (if factual or imaginative) and scapegoating minorities (migrants) for everything bad.
The perceived hesitation and disagreement of the current government doing their part, many of the „Bio-Germans“ who feel disadvantaged turn to the idea of „the new strong man“ that finally „cleans up the cesspool“ they imagine the current political system to be.
If nothing drastically changes, I see whole federal states go lost to the AfD that especially in eastern states are nothing more than a thinly veiled new NSDAP.
Nazism is still a shunned no-go, and the AfD knows that (and regularly accuses others of being Nazis). The way I see it, its officials are still Nazis though, but they get around acknowledging that by just positioning themselves as counter-culture opposition to progressive movements, which is great at mobilizing a united front of anyone who feels attacked by any part of progressivism. Meanwhile, they also covertly appease other Nazis and the extreme right through dogwhistles and the like. The anti-progressive voters just ignore or tolerate this. This combination sadly proves successful. When they start building the camps, of course everyone should’ve known they’re Nazis, but no one thinks that far even though it’s their policies’ logical conclusion.
Yeah, exact same thing is happening in Australia. Even the camps, they’re just not explicitly extermination camps as much as “destroy your soul with indefinite and lengthy confinement” camps. They prefer the name “detention centres” though. I hope refugees in Europe are treated better than that.
No, sadly refugees are already treated quite badly here. Germany took in a respectable amount but then left it to the EU border countries to either deal with them with little to no help or just shut themselves off completely. :( What would really be needed is a program to redistribute resources from the wealthy profiting from neocolonialism/climate change to those affected by it, but it’s generally framed as if the general population would need to pay for that which turns them against the refugees.
They also take advantage of people’s lack of math skills to present scary absolute numbers of immigrants that are not that high per capita.
I thought the same 20 years ago. The positive outlook was common sense at the time, not an exaggeration. The overall vibe was inclusive, we had open borders in Europe since the 90ies, and German public opinion pro-European and progressive-leaning.
Neonazis were a thing, but a niche phenomenon. Angry young man. Not a part of mainstream society and everyone from conservative teachers to rock bands were ‘against nazis’, whatever this means.
The situation has changed indeed and it is somewhat scary. Right-wing (including fascist) talking points get significant air-time in the media. Politicians use language that appeals to far-right voters much more openly, dog whistles maybe.
The society is more divided these days. Bavaria votes next weak and you will see a strong divide between urban and rural. Trivial things like how to address groups of people including all genders are heated debates. Rational policies towards solving the climate crisises are stalling because change is seen as an attack on a livestyle. Better: Propaganda frames everything as a cultural war. Your vegan sandwhich, that’s war against cattle farmers.
Source: German
I think the only difference between Australia and Germany might be the vegan sandwich part of your post. Although, I probably wouldn’t try to order the vegan option one in one of our cattle-farming towns… but they would just laugh and call me a city-person, which would be true.
This thread has made it very clear to me that yet again, despite languages and regions, we’re experiencing the exact same issues and rhetoric. I suspect that’s true globally.
I hope we can all find a way out of this mess soon.
This will give you a study based view in this topic. https://www.dw.com/en/why-is-far-right-populism-becoming-more-popular-in-germany/a-66084741
A lot of people just stared accepting far right wing views like about abortion, LGBT hate and etc. Instead of fighting them. They also made a lot people really belive that all problems we face are not from big companies wo only pay minimum wage (which isn’t enough to support people in bigger cities) or who own over 70% of the real estate in Germany but because of left wing politics and immigrants.
I remember that we discussed this specific question at school. How dangerous it is to believe that “this can’t happen here again because we all remember it and everybody is so well educated about it”. That’s when you start letting your guard down. That’s also when people who may not identify as nazis (yet) start thinking :“Well, national socialism obviously can’t happen again, therefore MY far right views can’t possibly count as national socialism, therefore they’re ok.”
It’s all bullshit. You can educate people all you want, there will always be a certain percentage of assholes and idiots and we’ve been far too tolerant of those for far too long.
The same happens here as in every other western country. The right-wing shares their winning strategies of disinformation, populism and avoiding talking about actual policies, which seems to work more or less the same in all countries. Germany is just lagging behind a bit.
“Getting hold of” can be interpreted broadly. While it’s not unrealistic that the next coalition might be conservative CxU + libertarian FDP + nazi AfD, it’s also very likely that the AfD gets banned until the next election, the responsible organization already has an eye on them. And a government with the AfD would be catastrophic (obviously), but it wouldn’t equal the creation the fourth reich. They would need a 2/3 majority to change/abolish constitutional laws and to change art. 1-20, which ensure human rights and such stuff, they would first need to change/abolish art. 79, which not even CxU and FDP would support. And here’s the fun part: if the AfD actually planned to do that, even without outright stating it, it would be enough to get them banned. The protecting mechanisms are there, the AfD can’t do anything about it and the other parties with coalition potential, even CxU and FDP, wouldn’t pave the way that far for another dictatorship.
So while it’s grim that a Nazi party is that popular, the damage they can possibly do is definitely below 1933.
On the other hand, should they gain 33% of seats, they can block all changes to the constitution. Should they occupy enough seats in the Bundesrat, they can block statewide policies. They do not need to be in power, to have a lasting impact on the German democracy. Given the current trend and that a not functional government leads to even more votes for the far right, it still looks bleak.
For one, calling every person who is against migrants or refugees “a Nazi” is really bad. I don’t know where this originally started, but people seem to use this word for all kinds of assholes.
Nazis were a political party and in Germany you learn about history of the Nazis and second world war. That’s not the same as learning how to not be against migrants or something.
Nazi symbols etc. are still forbidden and even many extremely right wing people would be appalled if you call them a Nazi. These are two different things. And the inflationary use of the word is really stupid (not directed at you, I see it everywhere online for all kinds of things). You give them an easy way out because they will start a discussion about the word or try to push the narrative that only “real Nazis” are the problem.
The movement to the right you see currently in Germany has the same reasons as the movement to the right you see in other countries currently as well.
Not particularly well-off people and/or not particularly bright people and/or just greedy people are scared they will get left behind or become less wealthy if other people take or even participate in what they see as theirs. Refugees and migrants are by far the easiest target for these frustrations.
Sorry, but no. They arent just a party that happens to be against migrants and is called nazis because of that. That is a part of their reportoire, but the connections go far deeper than that.
The AfD is anti-migrant, anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-women, anti-handicapped, anti-minority and anti-“”“bankers”“” (i.e jews).
Their members routinely (both in public and even more severely in private) make reference to programs and actions by the nazis. Every now and then a photo of one of them doing a hitler salute or standing in front of the hakenkreuz-flag goes public. They have connections to right-wing terrorists.
At the latest when höcke called for a “180 degree turn in history politics" (i.e towards the third reich, not away from it), I have lost any semblence of understanding for anyone who isnt willing to realize that the AfD isnt just a conservative party to the right of CDU/CSU.
They are Nazis.
And not calling them that for some attempt at political maneuvering just means that they and their voters arent confronted with the history and opposition to their ideas, and can instead continue to mask as “just conservatives”.
I am not saying they are just a conservative party. I also didn’t thought the person I reacted to was only talking about AFD, but the general rise in right wing rhetoric in different parties and the populace. It’s also not just the AFD that is problematic.
Just calling them Nazis plays right into their hands and won’t help at all. They will simply turn it around and complain you insult them as Nazis and lament you are just trying to kill their arguments with it.
The term “Nazi” sees so much overuse, you gain absolutely nothing by using it. In my opinion it is better to directly address and call out what they say precisely.
The majority of people voting for the AFD don’t do the Hitler salute and similar. And calling them Nazis won’t change their mind but instead it will do the exact opposite! It will encourage them to vote for the AFD or similar parties because now they can claim you are just trying to insult them and won’t address what they say. “The evil left just wants to silence us!”
Their arguments are easily refuted and that’s what needs to happen again and again. While it might feel satisfying labeling them, it won’t help the cause.
While I’m not convinced the distinction between extreme right wing supporters and Nazis is as significant as you suggest, I do understand that it is possible to object to unchecked mass migration without being a Nazi or even being right-wing.
Refugees and corresponding xenophobia are a pretty standard global topic for obvious reasons, and as much as I wish infrastructure could be instantaneously built, I know it can’t be.
But:
AfD members have called for a second Holocaust … the execution of refugees … the imprisonment of homosexuals … the creation of a new SA … the imprisonment of left wingers in Buchenwald … and practicing apartheid.
We’re well past discussing the nuances of “what separates Nazis from other far-right ideology” and plausible deniability when someone starts invoking the name of fucking Buchenwald. Even if the rest of that list were somehow acceptable or could be explained away, there’s no mistaking what Buchenwald means.
I’m not surprised by the global rise of the right-wing rhetoric as the situation gets harder for 99% of people. I have been watching that closely for years. Xenophobia is always presented everywhere as the false easy solution. What I am surprised by is that Germany is allowing politicians to advocate specific Nazi atrocities when there are purportedly laws against glorifying Nazis.
Calling for a second holocaust, demanding refugees should be executed, all of this is forbidden in Germany. I don’t know where you got your information from but none of this has happened:
AfD members have called for a second Holocaust … the execution of refugees … the imprisonment of homosexuals … the creation of a new SA … the imprisonment of left wingers in Buchenwald … and practicing apartheid.
There are Nazis in the AFD, though. They want to stop teaching so much about the Holocaust at schools and they use rhetoric tricks to get people riled up or circumvent the laws around denying the Holocaust.
For example Björn Höcke (who almost certainly is a Nazi) said: “Alles für Deutschland” (All for Germany) and has to go to court for this.
I think we still misunderstand each other on why calling right wing people in general Nazis is a problem. And Björn Höcke is a good example.
The word is used as if you are right wing, then extremely right wing and then you are a Nazi. As if this is somehow worse than being extremely right wing. But “Nazi” is not the superlative of being right wing. And people like Höcke will use this to get people to vote for the AFD.
A Nazi is someone who is, for example, denying the Holocaust. Or believes in Herrenrasse or something like that. Right wing people simply have to deny that they are Nazis (which is easily done, look above) and suddenly your “argument” is gone.
That’s exactly what Björn Höcke did before and will do in court again. It will again be about whether or not he can be called a Nazi which is completely irrelevant if you want to tackle the problem that is people voting for AFD and other politicians being increasingly right wing.
When the court says: “Yes, Björn Höcke used Nazi rhetoric!” The AFD will say: “Oh no what an evil man! With Nazis we don’t want to have anything in common! He is not AFD anymore.” And all the people can continue to vote for AFD, they aren’t Nazis afterall. Great!
I was unable to determine what other interpretations this might have:
“Abschiebung der Antifa nach Buchenwald. Arbeit statt Linksterror.”
Perhaps there is some nuance I have missed, ‘nach’ is a very versatile word even if the rest are very unambiguous.
This factchecker analysis looked even-handed enough for me to be satisfied it was not just my poor German or inaccurate auto-translation.
For the other incidents, I’ll leave you to check the post I initially replied to for names and accuracy checking.
Did you ever argue with one of the AfD voters? They don’t take facts well, they don’t care about facts anymore. It’s a bit like arguing with conspiracy theorists.
There definitely is overlap between them and those who believe in conspiracy theories. But there are a lot of average people who vote for them as well. Like, middle aged, not particularly poor or wealthy. Your typical boomer…
Many AFD voters I’ve heard talking or saw what they write believe that specifically Muslim immigrants are bad for Europe. And/or they think that the green party is responsible for them having less money.
For those AFD voters who are immigrants, they vote for them because they believe refugees specifically cost too much money and they are also against the green party. At least, that’s what I hear from the people in my neighborhood, which is mostly people whose families migrated from Turkey, sometimes two generations ago.
A third group think they somehow get back at the “elite” when they vote for AFD. Like a poor example of an act of defiance.
I believe that at least those who are not primarily xenophobic are still people we could bring to the other side. We waited to long to ban the AFD. I fear if they ban them now, the next right wing party will get a headstart in voters…
simple thing to keep in mind: money is a tool that can, among other things, allow to anonymously exploit socially weaker groups of people. for example to build cheap phones or clothes. keep this in mind when an extremely rich person says anything. they’re winners at a rotten game
Apartheid-baby in support of nazis? Say it ain’t so.
And he was called out on his own Plattform by the german foreign office for it:
Yes. Yes, I am proud, that my tax money saves lives. Fucking cunt
What the actual fuck…
What?
The apartheid emerald mine baby doesn’t have the most tolerant views of migrants?
I’m shocked! Shocked I say!
Anyone else getting the feeling this dude is preparing his future in politics? The visits with Netanjahu and the border, the loudmouthing on his private online servie…not sure what he is trying to accomplish, but it feels like some sort of gathering the right behind him.
He’s gonna be Trump 2.
He can’t run for president. You have to be born in the US, (or outside the US of US parents ie Ted Cruz, not 100% sure on the latter one).
He was born in South Africa iirc. Same reason Arnie can’t run, Arnie would have waltzed it in if he could run
That’s a relief. I wonder what he’ll be running for then.
Vice President possibly. Pretty sure that doesnt have the birth location restriction. Which would potentially risk a partial term if the elected President died/became incapacitated.
Not sure if he’s going to be willing to write the sort of checks Trump would want in order to have him on the VP ticket.
Only other option might be Texas governor. I doubt his ADHD would let him focus on that long enough to achieve it, there are a huge number of people he’d need to bribe, bully or discredit to get that. It’s hotly contested so there’s going to be a lot of people blocking and undermining the attempt.
In short I don’t think he could keep his attention on it long enough to grind it out, and his autism is going to nobble his ability to do the soft influencing via speeches and glad handing that a “proper” political role requires.
VP is a real political role but you don’t necessarily need excellent political skills if your presidential candidate is good. Given that would be Trump it’s hard to say how it would unfold.
I personally hope the Trump 2024 campaign is a car crash regardless of veep candidate.
I’d go even further. Why not president? With all the “history doesn’t matter” and “let’s meme a ruinous guy into high position” mood at the moment, these people might dream of changing politics. Just think about it, how many people in power want to go with changing actual law, ruling for a very rich man to become the most powerful person on the planet? Something you would never have asked in the past 20 years.
Because he (Musk) legally can’t run for President. It’s in the US constitution. Must be a natural born American not just a citizen.
Yes it can be amended but that’s not a trivial task and would have to be done under a different president before he could run
Are you really, really sure that can’t happen? Did you think Trump could become president?
Wait, you’re telling me the rich guy who makes money off nazism supports nazis?
*loses money
I like the guy more today
Every time I see these headlines: piece of shit, piece of shit, piece of shit.
If you still use Twitter, you’re supporting a #fascist, full stop.
Based Elon.
