I’ll give you one point - Communists indeed don’t tend to aim for authoritarianism. Even Marxist-Leninists claim it’s just a necessary step along the way - the final society will be complete freedom.
I said as much in my comment - I just also pointed out the historical fact that efforts to implement a communist society without liberal ideals tends to slide towards authoritarianism real quick. China and the Soviet Union did not end up characterised by “more freedom than liberals can imagine”.
Brave of you to make assumptions what I’ve read and not.
Even Marxist-Leninists claim is just a necessary step along the way
false
efforts to implement a communist society without liberal ideals tends to slide towards authoritarianism real quick. China and the Soviet Union did not end up characterised by “more freedom than liberals can imagine”.
China is a capitalist hellhole, and the Soviet Union never achieved communism, and using it as an example of what communism is is like using North Kore as an example of what a People’s Republic is.
I second how glaringly obvious it is that you’ve not read much of anything to do with communism at all that’s outside of the realm of mainstream propaganda. You can protest all you like, but your views speak for themselves.
I am sure you didn’t read Marx and if you did, you did not enough.
It’s hard to implement socialism, if it never was tried. You have only one try and if this try fails you have huge problems, cause everything is suddenly gone and than you have slavery, hunger etc. back. And also, if you try to build socialism, suddenly a lot of people are against you. You have to struggle with more problems, than you imagined. And that’s important to understand. You are suddenly enemy with everyone. Look at the russian civil war - they had to fight against several countries, even the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War It’s just crazy. And if you have to fight against several countries than people tend to ignore this and instead they’re saying “See, it doesn’t work.”.
So, yeah, you’re right, communists tend to authoritarianism, but not because they want to. They tend to it, because they have to. There is no choice.
So, hypothetically if I had read Marx, what would I be saying differently? I’m curious to hear. :)
Regarding the “it has never been given a fair chance” argument, at least it’s better than trying to defend the state of affairs in countries that claimed to be implementing it. One could go as far as to say we almost agree - I said it’s “very hard to imagine actually getting there”, you said you “have only one try and if this try fails you have huge problems” and that you “have to struggle with more problems, than you imagined”.
“so I admit to never actually having read what I said I read, but please still invest your time and energy in spoon feeding me this information I clearly aren’t actually interested in”
Because Marx was much more vulgar and he knew and saw the problems. So it’s only logical, that Communists are reading Marx, today.
Also I think it’s important to understand that there are even communists, who don’t read Marx, who hate Lenin etc. There are a lot of beliefs.
To the property… Property is ok for communists. The property of means of production is the problem. This is unacceptable.
At this point I am not sure, if you’re right or wrong or if I understood you wrong, like I said, my english ends at this point, in my native language it would be much easier for me.
Vulgar? I mean, the manifesto is snappy, but Das Kapital is hardly vulgar.
There’s certainly a lot of communists who don’t read Marx.
It’s not so much about being right or wrong - neither of us are right or wrong. It’s a discussion of ideas to learn from each other and try to become less wrong, or at least more reflected. It’s ideas, there’s no hard truth. :)
I’m sure there’s a lot of interesting reflections in there, especially for people wanting to develop theory further! I guess to a degree that’s what Engels himself had to do in order to finish up volume 2 and especially 3.
By published works I meant to refer to the writings that were intended for publication, but I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with looking beyond them.
Personally I’m more interested in theory. Considering Das Kapital is 3000 pages of dense theory already, I still have a while to go before I need to move on to private correspondence.
I’ll give you one point - Communists indeed don’t tend to aim for authoritarianism. Even Marxist-Leninists claim it’s just a necessary step along the way - the final society will be complete freedom.
I said as much in my comment - I just also pointed out the historical fact that efforts to implement a communist society without liberal ideals tends to slide towards authoritarianism real quick. China and the Soviet Union did not end up characterised by “more freedom than liberals can imagine”.
Brave of you to make assumptions what I’ve read and not.
false
China is a capitalist hellhole, and the Soviet Union never achieved communism, and using it as an example of what communism is is like using North Kore as an example of what a People’s Republic is.
I second how glaringly obvious it is that you’ve not read much of anything to do with communism at all that’s outside of the realm of mainstream propaganda. You can protest all you like, but your views speak for themselves.
There’s South Korea and Taiwan.
China is pretty much “capitalism with beast grin”
I am sure you didn’t read Marx and if you did, you did not enough.
It’s hard to implement socialism, if it never was tried. You have only one try and if this try fails you have huge problems, cause everything is suddenly gone and than you have slavery, hunger etc. back. And also, if you try to build socialism, suddenly a lot of people are against you. You have to struggle with more problems, than you imagined. And that’s important to understand. You are suddenly enemy with everyone. Look at the russian civil war - they had to fight against several countries, even the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War It’s just crazy. And if you have to fight against several countries than people tend to ignore this and instead they’re saying “See, it doesn’t work.”.
So, yeah, you’re right, communists tend to authoritarianism, but not because they want to. They tend to it, because they have to. There is no choice.
So, hypothetically if I had read Marx, what would I be saying differently? I’m curious to hear. :)
Regarding the “it has never been given a fair chance” argument, at least it’s better than trying to defend the state of affairs in countries that claimed to be implementing it. One could go as far as to say we almost agree - I said it’s “very hard to imagine actually getting there”, you said you “have only one try and if this try fails you have huge problems” and that you “have to struggle with more problems, than you imagined”.
“so I admit to never actually having read what I said I read, but please still invest your time and energy in spoon feeding me this information I clearly aren’t actually interested in”
Oh, I read my share, but I don’t claim to have perfect working knowledge of all three binds of Das Kapital. It’s pretty dense theory.
Because Marx was much more vulgar and he knew and saw the problems. So it’s only logical, that Communists are reading Marx, today.
Also I think it’s important to understand that there are even communists, who don’t read Marx, who hate Lenin etc. There are a lot of beliefs.
To the property… Property is ok for communists. The property of means of production is the problem. This is unacceptable.
At this point I am not sure, if you’re right or wrong or if I understood you wrong, like I said, my english ends at this point, in my native language it would be much easier for me.
Vulgar? I mean, the manifesto is snappy, but Das Kapital is hardly vulgar.
There’s certainly a lot of communists who don’t read Marx.
It’s not so much about being right or wrong - neither of us are right or wrong. It’s a discussion of ideas to learn from each other and try to become less wrong, or at least more reflected. It’s ideas, there’s no hard truth. :)
yes, vulgar haha - you should read his private conversations.
Hahahaha, well, sorry for focusing on published works!
his private conversations are all published ;) Lenin said, if you wanna know Marx, you’ve to read his letters, also
I’m sure there’s a lot of interesting reflections in there, especially for people wanting to develop theory further! I guess to a degree that’s what Engels himself had to do in order to finish up volume 2 and especially 3.
By published works I meant to refer to the writings that were intended for publication, but I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with looking beyond them.
Personally I’m more interested in theory. Considering Das Kapital is 3000 pages of dense theory already, I still have a while to go before I need to move on to private correspondence.