Let the kids smoke, maybe enough of them will get asthma and will be able to dodge the draft.

I mean I don’t think kids should actually smoke, but I always find it funny that on some things governments are willing to move heaven and earth for the sake of the children…and then turn a blind eye to things like global warming and war. Like these are also bad for the children my dudes.

More than the amount of doctors who found direct scientific evidence …

The guy wrote a paper about it and tried to find any evidence to support the new rules, he didn’t find any.

from 2018 says there’s problems with even really short lengths of beard…

You are making claims that weren’t in the article. That studies conclusiion were

“Conclusion: Beard length and areal density negatively influence FF. However, tight-fitting half-face negative-pressure respirator fit tests can achieve adequate fit factor scores even with substantial facial hair in the face seal area.”

Plus your original claim was that razor bumps would negatively impact the fit, not short length beards. You’re moving the goalposts.

You basically admitted to breaking OSHA rules though. So congrats!

Lol, you really have issues with reading comprehension… OSHA doesn’t care as long as it does not impede function of the seal. You determine the fit of the seal by doing a fit test. If you do a fit test and pass, it’s not impeding the seal.

“The Respiratory Protection standard, paragraph 29 CFR 1910.134(g)(1)(i)(A), states that respirators shall not be worn when facial hair comes between the sealing surface of the facepiece and the face or that interferes with valve function. Facial hair is allowed as long as it does not protrude under the respirator seal, or extend far enough to interfere with the device’s valve function. Short mustaches, sideburns, and small goatees that are neatly trimmed so that no hair compromises the seal of the respirator usually do not present a hazard and, therefore, do not violate paragraph 1910.134(g)(1)(i).”

Removed by mod

At this point we’re getting nowhere… When you say shit like “With chemical weapons?”… Yes we’re talking about literal war…

Yes, and in war chemical weapons aren’t exactly known for their deep strike capabilities. Chemicals are hard to disperse accurately and in significant quantities, especially from far away.

This is literally the primary place chemical weapons are used as far as all of known recorded history.

You’re claiming chemical weapons are usually used to attack deep behind enemy lines?..source for that? Again, besides your supposed “service” that made you an expert in respirators.

OSHA, ANSI, all branches of DOD and the study agree with me… You can argue whatever you want, I’m disengaging.

Lol that razor bumps impede the seals on respirators…? hilarious that you haven’t engaged with that rebuttal a single time despite it being my first correction.

Judging by the way you interpreted that last paper, I don’t feel confident you’re really capable of having an educated opinion. So I think it’s best you disengage.

though I think you’re really disengaging because I’m on the money about your time in the military. Still haven’t replied about your mos…

Wouldn’t know. Didn’t try to wear it without being clean shaven (or close enough/stubble).

I meant without… Though I doubt you spent much time in it. What was your mos again…? Never answered that. I’m guessing based on the fact that you’re non Lemmy it wasn’t infantry… I’m guessing you were on a computer most of the time.

out of thousands of soldiers? out of thousands of applications of the mask during an attack? 2% is a large number…

Reduction in effectiveness does not mean failure you dolt.

The sourced document that I provided and clearly you read proved to you that beards will break seals. From the study “Beard length and areal density, but not coarseness, were statistically significant predictors of fit”. If length and density were not relevant to the matter then they would have stated so. But it is. So it is. Poor fit is a bad seal. The study showed no issue for up to 0.063 inches of hair… pull out a caliper and check that length… That is VERY short. I can grow that in probably 2-3 days. Hell even 0.125 is pretty short… and that’s where there’s already fall off and failures in getting seals. You are now arguing that it’s okay for 2% of military members to die during a chemical attack just because they want to have a bit more than stubble… This is a crazy stance to accept.

Lol, again ignoring the part where you claimed that razor bumps affected seals…you aren’t arguing in good faith. You are also making conclur not made by the original source.

Can’t choose what gets attacked… The enemy chooses that.

Lol… With chemical weapons?

didn’t bring it up did I? You did.

My claim was that facial hair has little to do with a good seal, and that facial shape and brand has more to do with it.

Your argument is that it’s facial hair not, so the brand doesn’t do anything to support you argument.

have to assume that this is “not at all” confidence for both scenarios then.

And the argument is about facial hair… Remember? I like how you constantly they to redirect the argument away from your original claim… really helpful.

Honestly though I’m still reeling from you comparing your job of just handling some chemicals to an airborne chemical attack situation that would aerosolise the chemical…

Honestly surprised your arguing with some with a degree in chemistry when your only experience was probably in basic training. You deal with a lot of Sarin attacks in the 4 years of doing IT for the army?

Here

We’re not in a trial case…

If I wanted to be as much of a pain in the ass. None of your claims about being in the service are admissible in nerd court apparently.

Oh boy… you don’t know about military contracts do you?

So your mask didn’t work then…?

You posted quotes with no source. Which is why I ignored it.

you are exhaustingly pedantic…

Cool… one guy says it’s not a problem. Here’s an actual study. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29283316

" Beard length and areal density negatively influence FF. However, tight-fitting half-face negative-pressure respirator fit tests can achieve adequate fit factor scores even with substantial facial hair in the face seal area"

I don’t really think one could really claim that a 2% reduction in effectiveness quantifies as beards break gas mask seals.

agree with him… it is discriminatory.

That’s what the whole argument was about.

when the effect of that discrimination is less potential death on a battlefield…

Again, you haven’t substantiated your claim about bumps effecting seals… You haven’t even substantiated that beards break seals.

So no, you can’t claim it would save lives. Plus, the majority of people serving in the military arent in combat positions.

And as seen above, when research is done… it shows exactly what I said it shows, because I’m basing my opinion on my lived experience and the research that supports that.

I don’t think you read that paper correctly…

Which the military standardized on one specific model of mask… so picking a choosing a brand is kind of out of the question now isn’t it?

That doesn’t have anything to do with your facial hair…does it?

would like to pose a different question for you then… Assuming that you have the 1/4" or longer facial hair now that you claim you wear… Would you be confident that you could run in it for a football field carrying gear and shooting a gun for hours without losing the seal?

I don’t have a beard atm, but I would be just as confident doing that with or without the beard.

Edit: Additionally… the risk of whatever you’re doing in the hospital is much lower than Sarin gas or other wartime gaseous weapons. A bad seal for you might make you a little dizzy or you have to take a break and re-seal/replace your respirator, where a bad seal on the battle field would simply mean death.

Lol, no we have to wear butyl respirators and do monthly fit tests because we work with extremely dangerous chemicals. Some of which do have a NFPA rating of 4, the same as Sarin.

then you have no clue what the M50 respirator fits like then

Lol, I imagine it fits like any butyl rubber respirator. They aren’t making them specifically worse just for the military.

Weird guarantee to make when you have no fucking clue who I am or what I do…

I mean, did you wear your respirator multiple hours everyday for more than ten years? Unless you were working in a lab for the military I highly doubt you spent much time in your PPE.

I even told you from my post that I have a full face respirator still. Would be weird to have one and not be using it no?

Not really? Unless you use it for your job a lot of people will have one they seldomly use at home for small projects like painting.

But now this devolves into a pissing contest, which I’m not particularly interested in participating in.

Your basing all of your argument on anecdotal evidence… Of course bits going to divulge into a pissing contest. That’s why I posted a source stating that there was no evidence supporting your claim…you know the part that you ignored.

Just being in the military isn’t evidence, we have no idea what you mos was or how long you were in for. For all we know you could have just been a pog in the national guard for 4 years.

And to preempt an argument… “there’s no study that says beards/razor bumps interfere with gas masks”… There are. Most of them say minimal beards/hair is fine (less than 1/16th of an inch) to get a mask seal, where 1/8 can already lead to issues. But it’s understudied. The risk of getting it wrong is people’s lives.

You are conflating razor bumps with a 1/8" beard. There aren’t studies that evaluate mask fittings with razor bumps, you’re just adding that to suit your argument.

"While many military leaders defending the beard prohibition have repeated the claim that beards break gas mask seals, one Air Force doctor has found no direct scientific evidence to support it.

“It’s an unsubstantiated claim,” said Lt. Col. Simon Ritchie, a dermatologist who last year published a study on the beard prohibition’s discriminatory effect on Black airmen. While supporters of current Air Force policy “may have anecdotal evidence of one to five people who they see fail the fit test,” he said, “that can’t be extrapolated to hundreds of thousands of airmen.”

I’ve never been in the military, but I can guarantee I’ve had to wear a full face respirator rated for organic solvents more often than you. Imo beards have minimal effects on getting a decent seal. My hospital makes us do a fit test every 3-4 weeks, and I’ve passed with a beard longer than a 1/4" plenty of times.

In reality the shape of your face and the brand of your mask has a lot more to do with passing a fit test more than anything. I can guarantee that razor bumps aren’t going to make a difference.

Saying “it’s us, men” (to rule the world) is inherently a narrative that avoid discussing the class division,

I wasn’t the one who claimed white young men were being systemically oppressed… If you are examining class division through gender then it is an impossible topic to avoid.

You can’t have it both ways. I’ve been saying the whole time it doesn’t make sense to examine class struggle through the lens of gender, my claim about “us men” was made to highlight the contradictory nature of the original claim.

because being a man is not being part of a social class.

That is what I’ve been saying the whole time…

The reason I brought it up was to dispel the claim that white men were being specifically targeted in the first place.

Did you not read the context of the post?

maybe it feels like oppression because it is.

Oppression being committed by who exactly? What demographic currently holds the reigns of power in our governmental and economic hierarchy?

Nobody in this thread has their mind open to the possibility that structural changes disadvantaging (young, predominantly white) men can happen even when other groups are continuing to be held back.

What you don’t understand is that if they are coming for young white men now, it’s only because they’ve run out of minorities to disenfranchise. So if everyone nis getting abused now…it’s a class struggle.

The reason no one is responding to the blooming problems of young white men is because those have been problems everyone else has already been experiencing. And guess what, the majority of young white men didn’t ever want to hear about the problems of everyone else.

Now that you are experiencing the same issue…does this make you more empathetic to the troubles of your fellow workers…No, you bitch and moan about anyone trying to say it’s not just a problem for young white men. You still care nothing about class solidarity, you just want to bitch about your own demographic being kicked out of the free treat club.

hope you realize how alienating a sentence like this is, for someone who is as stomped by society as many women are.

How? How am I alienating anyone by telling them something they already know?

This narrative is exactly what prevents any form of class solidarity

What the fuck are you talking about? Did you not read the rest of the post… My point was that if being a man isn’t the inherent source of your struggle then it must not be the real problem…the real problem is class war.

You don’t believe in equality, PERIOD. Because people like you oppose women being drafted.

Wrong fuck face, I don’t believe in the draft for men or women.

You also deny systemic misandry like the alimony laws & even support policies like abolishing prisons for women & reduced sentencing for women & only women.

The majority of law makers are men, the majority of judges are men, the majority of law enforcement officers are men… How is men making rules that you perceive to negatively affect men = misandry?

There are multiple documented evidences of feminists shaming men into getting drafted while they get to be safe & secure & one of their excuses was “We have a crisis in masculinity”

Lol, you really think the white feathers was a feminist movement?

Finland has a women-majority govt](https://www.forbes.com/sites/carmenniethammer/2019/12/12/finlands-new-government-is-young-and-led-by-women-heres-what-the-country-does-to-promote-diversity/), of course the diversity part is a lie.

“Moreover, almost half (47%) of the country’s” having a woman as the leader doesn’t mean they have the majority. You’re either lying or you can’t fucking read.

I like that you posted an article praising the quality of living and equity in a country and think it helps your argument.

EU is led by feminists & BTW, pandering to women is also feminism, there are literally reserved seats for women & a male-only draft. These are all Equity to you huh

Lol, I don’t think you know what equity, feminism, or majority means.

like how you’re putting in so much effort into pushing the narrative that it’s men who do it, when the biggest warmongers just so happen to be women & there’s not a single word of opposition to the draft by feminists.

Lol, name a time in modern history where a woman was the leader of a nation who started a war…

Like the White-feather movement being nationalistic, yet it was still women who shamed men into fighting the war (women didn’t want to go to war & even today women as a whole are opposed to conscription for women)

And you think I like the white feathers? Being a feminist doesn’t mean you support every decision of every woman… That’s just insane. That would be like me blaming every man, for WW2 because Hitler was a dude.

Reminder women in the military are placed in either guard duty or administration.

Lol, that’s not even true… Women have been allowed to be in combat roles since 2013.

And guess what, it’s not the women who say they shouldn’t be

The same can be said about you too, you know you are not getting shit done against the ownership class so resorting to insulting and demeaning anyone who appears privileged to you.

Lol, I’m the same because I’m upset that people aren’t engaging in class consciousness?

You want to really fight a class war? How about starting by not out of frustration humiliating anyone who has different symptoms of the same problem as you.

I’m making fun of people who claim to be leftist, but only care about their own demographics. You can’t be a leftist and abandon the very basic idea of class consciousness.

Sure men talking about their problems is misogyny,

It is when you talk to them about their problems and all they do is bitch and moan about dei.

you can’t gate keep the left, and anybody who is reading this, some people at left accept you and adversiory despite of your gender

Again … This isn’t about their gender. I’m a dude. Its about how they’ve abandoned class consciousness and are demeaning the struggles of their fellow working class by claiming they somehow have it worse than everyone else. And when you ask them why… You just end up getting thinly veiled misogyny.

a male dominated profession

True, but does that make Giorgia Meloni a fascist DEI hire?

Yeah, they seem to be more on the side of “national socialism” than actual socialism. Socialism…but only for a certain demographic that happens to encompass me and people who look and act like me.

Well If it helps I think you made really good points, and in a much more civil manner than what that guy deserved…and he still tried to frame you as having a “hostile tone”. Misogynistic never fucking change.

Keep up the good fight

Yeah… I didn’t think the culture was as ubiquitous. Kinda scary to see on a platform with so many self professed “leftist”. You can’t seriously think you are on the left when you only care about providing for your specific demographic.

The kids are not alright apparently.

This fucking thread is crazy… especially these dudes trying to wrap their misogyny in faux leftist babbling.

There is no struggle but class struggle. They’re just pissed they missed the bus on being invited to the ownership class and now they’re stuck down here with everyone else.