• EdibleFriend@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    It was a total mess of a situation with no 100% morally correct solution. I think she did the closest to the right thing though.

    Related…I don’t understand the hate this episode gets. Treck is at its Treckiest when it’s weird future moral dilemmas.

    • SSTF@lemmy.worldOP
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      1 year ago

      People argue about it instantly decades later. That proves it was effective.

      • CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world
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        1 year ago

        All it proves was that the dilemma itself is effective.

        The episode and its resolution are crap, because they don’t justify her decision. They leave it to the viewer. They do a disservice to everyone involved.

    • EmergMemeHologram@startrek.website
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      1 year ago

      It’s clear to me that if a sentient crewmate says “please don’t kill me” you should not murder them, no matter how grief stricken you are.

      Tuvok and Neelix were dead.

      (I do like this episode)

      • wahming@monyet.cc
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        1 year ago

        ‘Dead’ is a very fluid boundary. More so than usual, in this case.

          • Madison420@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            They was a voyager episode too.

            There is no morality or immorality in it, she is responsible for her crew, tuvix wasn’t crew but the other two were.

            You didn’t murder anything, we have several examples of transporter patterns living out their lives in holodeck simulations.

          • wahming@monyet.cc
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            1 year ago

            If someone’s heart stopped in a hospital, then an alien possessed their dead body and said “I was just born, this is my body now, your guy was dead” I don’t think anyone would argue that the person’s heart could very much be restarted (assuming otherwise healthy) and the alien has no right to use someone else’s bits.

            A better analogy would probably be, if an alien used the body of a cryogenically frozen person that we KNEW could be revived with 100% certainty.

          • CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world
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            1 year ago

            Tuvix wasn’t some alien body snatcher who possessed the bodies of the deceased. He was literally Tuvok and Neelix living on in a new form, which comprised a third entity.

            In killing Tuvix, Janeway also murdered both Neelix and Tuvok.

            What she did, in essence, was to murder three people to bring back two.

        • CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world
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          1 year ago

          There being a method of resurrection doesn’t make a person any less dead. They were dead, but Janeway the necromancer knew how to bring them back to life. All it took was a sacrifice.

          • Madison420@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            They never died, ever.

            Patterns merged, both wholes remained whole they just mingled together in such a way that created a third party. Tuvix is quite literally a schizophrenic fever dream for both originals…

  • Lydia_K@startrek.website
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    1 year ago

    Janeway made the right call, no one wanted that Tuvix weirdo around, that’s why no one came to his defense.

    • SSTF@lemmy.worldOP
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      1 year ago

      It’s okay to murder people who are unpopular.

      The gigachad viewpoint has arrived.

    • Moghul@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Tuvix was 50% Neelix which qualifies him for the death penalty. The real travesty is that Neelix was allowed to exist afterwards. /s

      Janeway made the right call, Tuvok and Neelix had their own lives and families and they could be saved. Tuvok was also a majorly important member of the crew and his skills could easily have been instrumental to their salvation.

  • Makeitstop@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

    Tuvix needs to continue existing.

    Tuvok and Neelix need to exist again outweighing Tuvix’s need

    The crew needs to be saved from Neelix’s cooking and general incompetence, which have proved to be a more consistent threat than the borg. Thus, Tuvok and Neelix’s needs are outweighed.

    Janeway needs Tuvok to be there to talk her out of doing impulsive things like starting wars, causing civilizations to fall, buttfucking the timeline, or murdering crew members. This effects whole worlds, so the needs of the crew are outweighed.

    They once showed Neelix taking a bath, and there is a chance (however small) that he might do it again. The audience’s need to not risk seeing that outweighs all the previous needs.

    • SSTF@lemmy.worldOP
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      1 year ago

      Duplicate Tuvix, divide the duplicate at the moment it is formed and before it achieves self awareness, execute Neelix. What’s the issue?

    • skygirl@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      I was reflexively mad reading the start of this comment but by the end you had me 100% sold on your analysis.

  • MaggiWuerze@feddit.de
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    1 year ago

    I never understood how transporters are not basically used as quicksave devices. Redshirt died on the planet after beaming down? Just create another copy from the transporter puffer. Tuvix deserves to live. Sure, just recreate tuvok and Neelix from the transporter puffer.

    Edit: “Transporter puffer” may come from me watching the German dub

    • ApostleO@startrek.website
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      1 year ago

      It’s my head-canon conspiracy theory that the true workings of the transporter are hidden/obfuscated, even from the technicians and engineers, to avoid the existential dread of facing the truth: you die, and then it clones you.

      All these systems to make it appear as if it’s a single, consistent matter stream, to leave room for the possibility of a consistent consciousness or even soul. It all falls apart in light of William Riker. You can’t duplicate matter. The only feasible explanation is that they got his scan, and successfully materialized him, but the signal that would have disintegrated the original failed.

      Tuvix died because people couldn’t accept how many times they had technically killed their colleagues, or commited suicide.

        • RojoSanIchiban@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          IIRC, it is explained (kinda) that the personal viewpoint of being solid within the matter stream isn’t entirely real. Wishywashy, but how do you show that on a screen, really?

          To the bigger issue above, the function of the transporter is that the pattern buffer isn’t “storage” such that you cannot query against the buffer as if it’s data in memory where individual particles can be pinpointed. (Obv this is not necessarily canon and some episodes poke holes in the idea).

          I’ve always imagined it more like a mound of dirt dumped onto a conveyor in FIFO order, sending it up the beam, then rolling in order into the pattern buffer. The buffer is just holding all the matter in a continuous conveyor in the original order so it can be reassembled on the pad. Outright saving a pattern to memory where every particle location, energy state, etc. would take basically all the memory everywhere (TNG: Lonely Among Us). Weapon and bacteria/virus patterns could be simple enough to detect within the buffer to knock those bits out as the “dirt” rolls around continuously.

          And of course the longer you roll a bunch of dirt down a conveyor, the positions of particles shift out of their original position until eventually there’s not enough of the original pattern to reassemble properly.

          My headcanon for Scotty locking the buffer into a diagnostic loop means additional scrutiny in the system’s pattern scanning which then keeps “knocking” bits back into place they were in the prior ‘pass’ down the conveyor in order to continue calibrating scanners.

          Don’t look at me like I’m crazy, it totally makes sense!!!¡!!!¡!!! *cough

      • ashok36@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        When you’re advanced enough to let go of concepts like having a soul, the idea of having your being destroyed and remade elsewhere becomes a lot let problematic. What’s the difference between being anesthetized and revived VS transported?

        Shit, for all we know the universe just started five minutes ago and all of history is just a collective delusion. Just go with the flow and stop worrying about existential problems. One day you’ll die forever and that’s OK.

        • ApostleO@startrek.website
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          1 year ago

          Oh, for sure. I’m fine with that. But it seems clear that the writers aren’t, and neither are many Trekkies.

        • verity_kindle@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Spock had a soul and that is canon. His soul (or whatever it was that made Spock more than the sum of his sexy, sexy green parts) was so important to his friends they quit their jobs, stole their own ship, crashed her, stole another one then got Spock’s soul out of valet parking just in time by THISMUCHSECONDS before it (or he) got lost forever.
          TLDR: souls are a thing for Vulcans, why not everybody else? Vulcans haven’t advanced beyond the concept at all.

    • Lydia_K@startrek.website
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      1 year ago

      The cannon answer is that it doesn’t work that way, it coverts you to energy and that energy is turned back into you so “nothing changes”. In cannon it doesn’t kill you and assemble a new copy, and you can’t duplicate a person because you only have one copy of their energy.

      Accidents like Thomas Riker are not supposed to be possible and only happen when they encounter strange energies which cause reactions that aren’t understood, so they can’t just make duplicates on demand.

      • SSTF@lemmy.worldOP
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        1 year ago

        The transporter doesn’t work this way

        Sometimes it does but that doesn’t count because it’s not supposed to work this way

        Just ignore it

        Your soul is already lost to the warp.

      • MaggiWuerze@feddit.de
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        1 year ago

        I’m pretty sure even in Voyager there was an incident where someone got stuck in the transporter puffer/cache/whatever it’s called in the og

        • SSTF@lemmy.worldOP
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          1 year ago

          Off hand I actually can’t think of any, aside from as close as Tuvix got.

          There was the episode where the population of Neelix’s home planet were revealed to be in some kind of particle limbo from a Star Trekium powered super weapon and a scientist was trying, unsuccessfully to restore them.

    • ForgetReddit@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Transporters become horrifying when you think of them as something obliterating all your molecules then recreating them somewhere else. The thing that comes out the other side has all your memories and personality and looks the same… but you 100% died when you got vaporized in the teleport.

      I would never do it.

      • ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        Look at any photograph or work of art. If you could duplicate exactly the first tiny dot of color, and then the next and the next, you would end with a perfect copy of the whole, indistinguishable from the original in every way, including the so-called “moral value” of the art itself. Nothing can transcend its smallest elements.

        CEO Nwabudike Morgan, “The Ethics of Greed”

    • Crashumbc@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Transporters were created to save money on the original series and have butt fucking plot holes ever since.

    • Skyrmir@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      They don’t create matter, they create an energy matter stream that moves the person molecule by molecule. How it happens is scifi magic, but it’s not the same as creating new atoms, which would require every replicator to have the energy to obliterate a planet.

      • Sotuanduso@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Replicators can make more than enough food to feed the ship.

        Why not use some of those atoms to reconstruct victims of unfortunate accidents? If there’s not enough, why not pack enough?

        • Skyrmir@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Because the stored patterns have the where, not the how fast. What would come out is a brain dead corpse.

      • MaggiWuerze@feddit.de
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        1 year ago

        No, they explicitly are written to a buffer of sorts and only when they were read completely are they reintegrated. That means you could easily just create two from the data and it would only use more energy.

        • Skyrmir@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          The buffer contains the stream(s) before being sent to an emitter. It’s not a hard drive, it’s a container.

    • Guy Fleegman@startrek.website
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      1 year ago

      Of course Janeway made the right choice. Anyone who says otherwise is either trolling or sexist. No one would care if it was Picard splitting Guiker or Sisko splitting Quira.

      • Adlach@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        Can you imagine an episode where Picard doesn’t agonize over this decision for 22 minutes and ultimately not do it? The guy spared the Borg.

      • CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world
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        1 year ago

        Picard would have justified his choice. Janeway didn’t even try.

        That’s not an indictment of Janeway, but of the lazy writers of that episode.

      • Stamets [Mirror]@startrek.website
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        1 year ago

        No! Haven’t you seen my incessant posting history? I must be everywhere at all times. I am the human personification of Warp 10!

        LET ME IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN

  • Narrrz@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    Tuvix was an atrocity and extinguishing it would have been morally correct even if it had not resulted in numerically more living beings.

  • Kichae@lemmy.ca
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    Look, there’s no way Tuvok didn’t have “under no circumstances is my body, my mind, my soul, my organs, my DNA, or any products thereof to be integrated into any form, permutation, or byproduct of Nelix” in his last will and testament. Therefore, Tuvix had to go.

  • popemichael@lemmy.sdf.org
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    1 year ago

    If only they could recreate the transporter accident that makes a perfect copy of a person. Then all that has to happen is to take the clone and split it before it realizes anything.

    That way EVERYONE could exist together.

    • TotallyNotSpez@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      That’s exactly what I’ve been telling people for ages regarding the Tuvix issue. Simple, yet effective.

      • popemichael@lemmy.sdf.org
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        1 year ago

        I didn’t realize that Allison Pregler was still making videos post Channel Awesome fiasco. I always liked her movie and show reviews back in the day. Thanks for the recommend!

        I can now see how I could be VERY clearly wrong in every way on the Tuvix topic from another perspective…

      • popemichael@lemmy.sdf.org
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        1 year ago

        I could see Janeway being based and using it that way

        It could also solve the need for clones of the Vorta. The Dominion could just pop another one out of the buffer and not have to depend on cloning facilities.

        • sirblastalot@ttrpg.network
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          1 year ago

          God I didn’t even think of that. Instant army. Altho, for that matter, you could also just use a replicator to fabricate an instant army of killbots.

          • popemichael@lemmy.sdf.org
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            1 year ago

            I wonder if killbots would be better than the Jem’hadar. Certainly a Jem’killbot cyborg would be better than both.

            I’m sure the Dominion put that to the test at some point.

            Though with the power of the dominion, it wouldn’t shock me if they invented the borg that way and the time shenanigans happened

  • Plibbert@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    Lol, so given the basic trolley dilemma, you just gon run over as many as you can. In this case 2.

  • Blackout@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    I think tuvix was asking for it. Remember that time he swapped out Janeway’s bra for a slightly smaller one. And it irritated her to the point she committed genocide on the breegans. He knew what was coming.

    • SSTF@lemmy.worldOP
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      1 year ago

      Ha yeah. Classic Tuvix. He got the whole section on double secret probation for that one.

  • CarlsIII@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    In my mind, Tuvix continues to live on within Tuvok and Neelix, waiting for the day when he can reunite himself once again .