It’s perfectly fine to be a “feminine” man. Young men do not need a vision of “positive masculinity.” They need what everyone else needs: to be a good person who has a satisfying, meaningful life.
He does refer to a quote, but I think the “honorary man” wording comes from him. If he quotes it, the rest of the article still proves that he links these trait-groups exclusively to either gender.
Gender performance isn’t something you fake, like in a theater, it’s more something you do like performing in a sport. I should have clarified that.
Also being yourself is not an answer. Young people are struggling with exactly that. Being yourself only works, if you know what yourself is. Gender traits or role models can give great guidelines for what you strive to be. And somewhere along your growth as a person you will find things that work and things that don’t. But you need some “starting direction” because yourself is usually still a kid.
For the trans thing, my wording is a bit unclear.
I meant acting like a (stereotypical) man.
You can say that they are a man as soon as they identify as one. I would also treat people that way. But the goal of most trans people is being recognized as their identified gender, without stating it, also called passing.
If you talk to trans people, there is often a concept of performing gender. This includes fashion and voice, but also mannerisms. To some these mannerisms come naturally, some train them to be more in line with how they view themselves.
I think these mannerisms and to an extend fashion are things that young men are also looking to modify in order to pass as men.
The obvious difference being that trans men switch gender, while cis men just go from boys to men.
Gender performance isn’t something you fake, like in a theater, it’s more something you do like performing in a sport.
I really like the analogy because it implies something that also happens in reality: it is competitive. You’re seen as inferior if you aren’t good at it. Which is a huge, huge problem
But you need some “starting direction” because yourself is usually still a kid.
I think it is a fair point. But masculinity (however you define it) should not be a default, and it should not be specifically encouraged for boys to aspire to. Like, I understand the need for role models, but why is masculinity relevant here?
But the goal of most trans people is being recognized as their identified gender, without stating it, also called passing.
I think the desire of a lot of men (trans or not) to conform to gender norms is not because we genuinely enjoy being masculine, it is rather because we enjoy more respect when we conform to these gender roles. Being “less of a man” sucks because people treat you as inferior. So we are inclined to conform. I am not trans but I can imagine that some feel a higher need to “prove” their masculinity because they are constantly invalidated.
I agree, that just masculinity is a bad direction, but it helps narrow down possible directions. It’s just a very easy group you are kinda born into. A lot of people seem to need frameworks to tailor their lives after, as seen by the tate-stans, or kardashian-stans for women.
I agree, that picking traits of several different people and freestyle some of your own is a better way to do it. But that is difficult sometimes and just being told what to do seems to appeal to a large chunk of people.
Kinda like using Linux vs Windows/Mac XD
Your point about loosing at gender like loosing in sports is great. I will definitely think more about the competition aspect sometime. It definitely is a thing with men (see dick-size jokes), idk if it is the same for women, though. There are definetly insults amongst women (slut/bitch) but I’m not sure if it has the same “less of insert gender” connotation.
To address this there probably needs to be a similar shift in gender roles for men, as there was for women. Women now are displaying a lot of traditionally male traits, while vegan men are called gay (derogatorily).
Idk how that shift will happen, but I think the first step would be for everyone to accept anger as an emotion. This would have multiple effects. First the “women are emotional” argument is moot, just look at crime rates. Secondly recognizing it as an emotion removes a lot of the stigma, thereby allowing men to deal with it instead of repressing. And lastly it might remove the “ranking” of emotions. Ranking in the sense, that when a woman cries and a man gets angry in response to something the man is expected to take care of the woman. This usually leads to more repressing.
All in all, I like the queer community, even if I’m mostly straight, just because I don’t have to compete in the gender game. Just not caring gives me a lot of confidence, ironically making me more masculine in traditional settings. XD
kind of feel weird about you both using trans men as demonstrating your argument without either of you actually being trans. there are as many kinds of trans men as there are cis, and you can find examples of those of us who enjoy conforming to stereotypical masculinity and those of us who don’t
it’s also fairly presumptuous to assume every trans person’s goal is to pass, and also to presume the intent behind the goal of passing
honestly even presuming that trans men are asking how to be men, instead of defining it for themselves, is very presumptuous
like, the points you’re making, in general, aren’t bad. but it kind of feels icky to presume a minority’s goal and to also use it as an argument, when that minority’s reasoning is wide and varied. i think most people don’t like being treated like a monolith and i think that applies here, too
trans men were also largely unnecessary for the arguments you were making. a lot of it could be said for people who want to or enjoy (or don’t!) presenting masculine, regardless of sex assigned at birth. the answer to the author’s question, why should we have positive examples of masculinity, really boils down to, because some people like being masculine, but not toxic. trans men aren’t really special in that regard
anyways, keep in mind that i don’t speak for all trans men, but this trans man felt weird about this, like i’m being referenced as a demographic with no regard for what being in the demographic is like. thanks for reading
He does refer to a quote, but I think the “honorary man” wording comes from him. If he quotes it, the rest of the article still proves that he links these trait-groups exclusively to either gender.
Gender performance isn’t something you fake, like in a theater, it’s more something you do like performing in a sport. I should have clarified that.
Also being yourself is not an answer. Young people are struggling with exactly that. Being yourself only works, if you know what yourself is. Gender traits or role models can give great guidelines for what you strive to be. And somewhere along your growth as a person you will find things that work and things that don’t. But you need some “starting direction” because yourself is usually still a kid.
For the trans thing, my wording is a bit unclear.
I meant acting like a (stereotypical) man.
You can say that they are a man as soon as they identify as one. I would also treat people that way. But the goal of most trans people is being recognized as their identified gender, without stating it, also called passing.
If you talk to trans people, there is often a concept of performing gender. This includes fashion and voice, but also mannerisms. To some these mannerisms come naturally, some train them to be more in line with how they view themselves.
I think these mannerisms and to an extend fashion are things that young men are also looking to modify in order to pass as men.
The obvious difference being that trans men switch gender, while cis men just go from boys to men.
I really like the analogy because it implies something that also happens in reality: it is competitive. You’re seen as inferior if you aren’t good at it. Which is a huge, huge problem
I think it is a fair point. But masculinity (however you define it) should not be a default, and it should not be specifically encouraged for boys to aspire to. Like, I understand the need for role models, but why is masculinity relevant here?
I think the desire of a lot of men (trans or not) to conform to gender norms is not because we genuinely enjoy being masculine, it is rather because we enjoy more respect when we conform to these gender roles. Being “less of a man” sucks because people treat you as inferior. So we are inclined to conform. I am not trans but I can imagine that some feel a higher need to “prove” their masculinity because they are constantly invalidated.
I agree, that just masculinity is a bad direction, but it helps narrow down possible directions. It’s just a very easy group you are kinda born into. A lot of people seem to need frameworks to tailor their lives after, as seen by the tate-stans, or kardashian-stans for women.
I agree, that picking traits of several different people and freestyle some of your own is a better way to do it. But that is difficult sometimes and just being told what to do seems to appeal to a large chunk of people.
Kinda like using Linux vs Windows/Mac XD
Your point about loosing at gender like loosing in sports is great. I will definitely think more about the competition aspect sometime. It definitely is a thing with men (see dick-size jokes), idk if it is the same for women, though. There are definetly insults amongst women (slut/bitch) but I’m not sure if it has the same “less of insert gender” connotation.
To address this there probably needs to be a similar shift in gender roles for men, as there was for women. Women now are displaying a lot of traditionally male traits, while vegan men are called gay (derogatorily).
Idk how that shift will happen, but I think the first step would be for everyone to accept anger as an emotion. This would have multiple effects. First the “women are emotional” argument is moot, just look at crime rates. Secondly recognizing it as an emotion removes a lot of the stigma, thereby allowing men to deal with it instead of repressing. And lastly it might remove the “ranking” of emotions. Ranking in the sense, that when a woman cries and a man gets angry in response to something the man is expected to take care of the woman. This usually leads to more repressing.
All in all, I like the queer community, even if I’m mostly straight, just because I don’t have to compete in the gender game. Just not caring gives me a lot of confidence, ironically making me more masculine in traditional settings. XD
@MareOfNights@discuss.tchncs.de hoping you’ll see this as well
kind of feel weird about you both using trans men as demonstrating your argument without either of you actually being trans. there are as many kinds of trans men as there are cis, and you can find examples of those of us who enjoy conforming to stereotypical masculinity and those of us who don’t
it’s also fairly presumptuous to assume every trans person’s goal is to pass, and also to presume the intent behind the goal of passing
honestly even presuming that trans men are asking how to be men, instead of defining it for themselves, is very presumptuous
like, the points you’re making, in general, aren’t bad. but it kind of feels icky to presume a minority’s goal and to also use it as an argument, when that minority’s reasoning is wide and varied. i think most people don’t like being treated like a monolith and i think that applies here, too
trans men were also largely unnecessary for the arguments you were making. a lot of it could be said for people who want to or enjoy (or don’t!) presenting masculine, regardless of sex assigned at birth. the answer to the author’s question, why should we have positive examples of masculinity, really boils down to, because some people like being masculine, but not toxic. trans men aren’t really special in that regard
anyways, keep in mind that i don’t speak for all trans men, but this trans man felt weird about this, like i’m being referenced as a demographic with no regard for what being in the demographic is like. thanks for reading