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I have yet to meet a single pro-Russian leftist in my country. Or a tankie. Sure, shit like lemmygrad, r/communism, etc. exists, but you have to go digging pretty deep to find those people.
Most leftists I know, even those who identify as socialists are pretty much in the “yeah, fuck Russia” camp. To the point that they openly advocate financing Ukraine.
This video is blatant propaganda piece, and not even truthful at what it tries to be.
I don’t know which country you live in but I know podcasters and other influencers in Germany and sadly also met their kind in person and passed by a protest. It is real.
Finland. Living next to Russian border might bring some reality checks here.
And yea, I can imagine you could dig some nutjob podcaster here too, but can’t imagine finding those people walking around IRL.
But the thing I’m most against is “western left”, which is the point where I call out the BS. Vice seat of our right-wing party literally went to a Putin propaganda camp in Russia in around 2015 (by his own admission, no less), yet it is somehow “western left” that gets the blame for few tankies who are nowhere to be found.
Finland might be a different story, but in Germany the Left Party is deeply devided between Russia supporters and others. It is not all the left (which is said in the video near the end) and of cause the right is much worse but it is a group too big to ignore.
And if the video didn’t make sweeping generalisations this would be a fine point to tackle. But it’s not saying “half of the german left”, it is saying “the western left”.
It’s not OK to leave this kind of stuff as a side note in small print, that is one of the prime tactics propaganda in general uses.
You’re right. “The Left” is a vague term and doesn’t apply here. I know such people and applied the video to them and as such it’s well done but the title and framing during the video is misleading.
Yeah, if the video was less conflictory and was framed in a way that didn’t scream polarisation to me, I wouldn’t be as quick to dismiss it as a propaganda piece.
As a side note, I’m actually surprised that Germany has such divide within the left.
About the side note: There are different factors at play: nostalgia about GDR, Anti-Americanism and the peace movement (not sending weapons anywhere). And I was especially talking about the party “Die Linke” (The Left). Other parties like the Social Democrates and The Green (both part of the government) disagree on that.
There are ML and tanky organistations outside of parliament. But I think the biggest organized left movement at the moment in Germany is the climate justice movement, which is very decentralized but I think most are against Russia. I might be biased though since I’m part of this movement.
The point isn’t that they exist, but that they are an extreme minority. Pretending that the left wing parties are somehow tricked because of this is propaganda.
Well, Germany has one left wing party (most others self-identify as center) and it is not long untill it seperates into two about this and other questions. Sure, it’s not “The Left” as a whole, but at the end of the video, he says that not everybody on the left supports Putin. It still is a seizable group within the (radical) left.
biggest success of pro-russian tankies in my country is single fb page with 2k likes. socdem party that has actual MPs advocated for sending weapons to Ukraine on second day o war and it’s only because they don’t have single leader (there’s collective leadership instead)
I have never met one in person either. I’ve met countless on the internet. It’s as if it was a manufactured outrage instigated by a genocidal regime. It worth addressing talking points distributed among that group.
There’s a certain kind of reactionary-left personality that I think is more common in parts of the west that used to be colonial powers, where if you’re far enough along the political spectrum that the mainstream parties all look like different variations on corporatist-fascists, you’re particularly vulnerable to messaging from geopolitical enemies of your own country for the simple reason that they’re opposed to the political structure you’re also opposed to. Here in the US I’ve run into a few such people, and it’s also clear that Russia’s soft-power operations have made efforts to cultivate relationships with the American left wing (people like Jill Stein and others in the Green Party). It’s pretty obvious, though, that they’ve had less success than they have on the right. It takes a particular kind of useful idiot to think, as a anti-colonial socialist or communist, that an oligarchic and socially-repressive right-wing autocracy is actually in your political corner.
There’s a certain kind of reactionary-left personality that I think is more common in parts of the west that used to be colonial powers, where if you’re far enough along the political spectrum that the mainstream parties all look like different variations on corporatist-fascists, you’re particularly vulnerable to messaging from geopolitical enemies of your own country for the simple reason that they’re opposed to the political structure you’re also opposed to.
Makes a lot of sense to me.
Here in the US I’ve run into a few such people, and it’s also clear that Russia’s soft-power operations have made efforts to cultivate relationships with the American left wing (people like Jill Stein and others in the Green Party). It’s pretty obvious, though, that they’ve had less success than they have on the right. It takes a particular kind of useful idiot to think, as a anti-colonial socialist or communist, that an oligarchic and socially-repressive right-wing autocracy is actually in your political corner.
I have to admit I know very little about the US politics. I’m fairly certain Russia tries that here in Finland as well, but well, our communist party is pretty much dead (and good riddance). Aside from the usual far-right wackos, their best bet here is probably to try to affect the peace movement people. Though even most of those I’ve talked with, with some exceptions, know that aggressors in wars should not be rewarded in order to keep the peace.
I have to say that Russian soft-power ops are scary. A lot of people here think that they are just the few wackos who everybody laughs at, and then think that when a certain popular right-wing party repeats Russian talking points they are completely unaffected by all that.
Yeah, you guys have the Winter War and Continuation War relatively fresh in cultural memory, which probably limits the reach of Russian propaganda. Over here, we remember the Soviet Union primarily as our Cold War rival, and neither side of that conflict came out of it with clean hands. For a certain kind of person, the sins of the American CIA and State Department during the Cold War don’t just reflect badly on our government; they somehow also make the Soviet Union, and therefore Russia as its successor state, the Good Guys of the last century of global geopolitics.
Yeah, my mother is an evacuaee from Karelia (though she was a small kid back then), so definitely relatively fresh - at least for my generation.
I’ve seen some of that America bad so Russia good - line of thinking in Finnish Internet forums too. But from what I’ve gathered, in our left wing it’s usually more “both suck”, which was certainly visible in our NATO discussion, but even then most of the Left Alliance (our most leftist party that isn’t a complete joke, we have communist party too, but they’ve never held seats in parliament) supported joining NATO. When it comes to financing Ukraine I’d say it’s way more unanimous “yeah, fuck Russia with this one”.
Of course, the commie party is pretty much “yea, surely Russia not that bad, we need peace” from what I’ve seen, but well, they hardly have enough people to be able to keep the party an official party (requires 5000 signatures every 2 elections with no seats).
Have you watched any of the Hassans takes on Ukraine? I only watched clips, which I assume are out of context. In those he was advocating for Ukraine surrender and to stop sending aid. Is that true? Sorry for asking you about it, I just cant stand listening to the guy, so I hope someone who does can offer some insight.
Sorry. I’m not American and I don’t know anything about that except what quick google search told me.
The video certainly paints with an overly-broad brush. The effects he describe do exist with people on the left who hate America more than they are willing to engage their brain and consider evidence. People who say they hate imperialism, but justify imperialism when it isn’t coming from America (or The West in general). The guy is talking about tankies.
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In Germany, the far left and the far right are most definitely pro-russia, each for their own reasons. The far right loves a Führer-like figure and that “minorities” are being actively discriminated in Russia, the left still considers Russia as being “anti-imperialist” even though Russia is definititely acting imperialistic af. And they are anti NATO. Russia considers both the german far left and far right as useful anti-NATO and anti-EU idiots, which aligns with their intentions. Thus they provide funding and relevance to them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OG0s3KANCY&pp=ygURd2FnZW5rbmVjaHQgcHV0aW4%3D
However, left/right moderates and liberals are pro Ukraine and they are the majority.
I guess it depends. I’ll bring my country as an example, Italy. Here we have Right parties that are pro-Russia but at the same time our president is from a far-Right party and openly against Russia. On the other side, we have many left parties that are pro-Russia, mainly because they are anti-NATO. They hate America so much they choose to side with the child abducter Putin.
Tankies loves him, but in most European countries they constitute a tiny minority of the left. So yeah, definitely an incredibly misleading title for the video.
I assume that’s intentional at this point…
There’s a constant push of some big “both sides”-narratives, trying to equate a minority of (or even singular) tankies inside an already left-wing minority as totally equal to far-rights getting massively funded by Russia.
He uses some famous examples of American leftist intellectuals (to some extent) siding with Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Unfortunately, it is a thing.
Yeah, but a tiny minority does not constitute “the left”. It is blatantly misleading.
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You are a bit confused but that’s OK
Says the person clearly confusing either tankies or liberals (or both? lol) for leftists.
People on the actual left A. never fell for Putin who has clearly been a dictator in the making since he got the job, and B. ideologically oppose all and any states, and their leaders, so suggesting that, of all groups, leftists are the ones who somehow bought in to Putin is the most clueless and wilfully ignorant take.
Being a mod doesn’t somehow magically make you correct nor well informed.
Oh sorry, the “actual” left. That solves everything, thanks
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OK now you are really confused. Please note I’m the moderator lol
So now that’s a thinly veiled threat on top of telling him how his own country works?
Yes, I have the power to end his entire career in this community. He should be polite to everyone, not just me, but I am also included with everyone. That being said, what is all this bullshit about “his own country”? People don’t magically know how their own country works, let alone other countries. Also I don’t even know which country is his country and I don’t give a damn. He apparently doesn’t know what country I’m from either.
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https://www.dsausa.org/statements/on-russias-invasion-of-ukraine/
Democratic Socialists of America left enough for you? Demanding the US leave Ukraine and Eastern Europe for Russia to genocide.
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It seems we are talking across each other. In Europe the US Democratic party is not really considered left. It has a left wing, AOC and such, which also happened to want to lessen support for Ukraine, but when Europeans talk about leftists what we usually mean is the farther left.
The point here is: The left, not some slightly more leftish conservatives but actual left-wing, are a small minority in many cases. In the US they are a fringe movement inside the not-as-far-right-as-republicans democratic party, in many EU countries they are often a small party overshadowed by nowadays very centric social democrats. And inside that already small faction there are probably even a handful of tankies.
And then there are usually quite big and rising right-wing populist parties paid by the Kreml (and some singular not-Russian-but-still-oligarchs donors… possible overlap in some cases included).
Trying -not for the first time in the last year- to push storylines equating a handful of ideologically problematic people that are a minority inside a left minority with big right-wing movements proven to be financed by Russia is one big piece “both sides” narrative and nothing more than propaganda…
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You have somehow managed to conflate being a pacifist with thinking that it’s okay for Russia to invade sovereign nations.
It’s definitely both. The ultra-left tankie lemmy instances love Russia and hate Ukraine too.
I would call anyone in that mindset not actually leftist, just right wing authoritarians with a red flag.
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Unless you’re going to claim all the tankies on lemmygrad and hexbear are secret righties, you’re just wrong on this one.
I mean they call themselves communist and espouse communist ideology though.
Plenty of far right groups have called themselves communist and socialist.
If you think these people “espouse communist ideology” then you need to be specific about exactly what ideology, and how that leads to support for Putin.
It’s what tears the German party The Left apart. One wing supports Russia, the other doesn’t. Source: I live there
I havent paid too much attention to the us politics, but since you did and you live there what do you think on Hassans stand on it? I dont watch the guy, I just saw portions of his stance on it, which may be out of context. But he seemed to be anti ukraine in those clips, saying that Ukraine should surrender and US should stop helping Ukraine. Do you know anything about it? Can you please offer some insight?
There is a big misconception, and a lot of hypocrisy.
Far right is pro-puttin because they love all dictators who fight in the Middle-East.
Left is against the US because they are imperialist and treat Europe as vassals through unfair trade agreements and nato blackmailing. This lead to a strategy to balance international relationships by cooperating more with Russia and China, among others.
There is a big hypocrisy, because liberals don’t care about dealing with dictators or not. They would mercilessly destroy a democracy if it was not capitalist and open to their national companies, and they happily deal with all dictators of the middle east and africa as long as they can get oil and other resources.
Puttin is not worse than Erdoğan, the only difference is that erdogan is supposedly in nato. Many countries in middle east are not better than Russia or China. The biggest problem with Russia is that it thought it could be a major power and made a stupid attempt to stay relevant, which propelled it into third world category with nukes.
All in all, Russia is not worse than the US. And no one in the European left support Russia since the beginning of Thame war. No one in the left actually supported puttin, even before that. That’s lies, propaganda and disinformation. Love for USA is still strong with the liberals though. An unconditional love that is very much not returned.
You know, I don’t like Erdogan at all. That being said, Putin is really worse than him. Like 1000x. Also, Russia is worse than the US, like 10000x. You just have absolutely no idea how much worse it is until you actually experience it.
Ok, now I’m not talking about local politics. The difference is indeed immense. I’m talking about international politics. And on this matter, USA is as bad the other 2.
Especially, USA is very bad even with its allies. As a European, I cannot ignore this.
And then there are all the islamist shit in the middle east that we gladly cooperate with simply because they have money and oil. We don’t talk about it in France because they are as bas as putin or erdogan but they have oil and money, and we want that.
From the france point of view it’s even worse because USA blackmails its otan allies to take US weapons instead of anything else, which cripples French defense industry. Talk about an ally… That’s why people would like to cooperate with USA enemies: to humble the USA, because in geopolitics, that’s the only way you do that. It’s a power game.
Fuck France, tbh
