• IHeartBadCode@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      Patriarchy

      You know the thing that bugs me the most about social patriarchy is the same thing that really gets me about anti-apologetics. There is the notion that there needs to be this unilateral action of sorts and straying from it shows weakness of sorts. It’s not uncommon to hear conservative and traditionalist indicate that admitting wrong is a sign of weakness. And the reality is that we learn best from our own mistakes. Trail and error is an incredible teaching tool.

      Patriarchy goes against what we actually know about how human beings learn things. It goes against the nothing of taking multiple inputs to come to a conclusion. It goes against the process of being well informed. It’s these absolutes within this kind of system that give rise to the various toxic behaviors. I think if men actually sit there and actually listen to women and allow women to participate in decisive action, men will learn infinitely way more.

      Men need feminism too

      Exactly. Good objective thinking relies on taking all input and being able to share executive action. Humans aren’t stronger than a bear, we’re not faster than a cheetah, and hell we don’t live nearly as long as most trees. The quality that humans have that places them above all else, is thinking and reasoning. And we do better at that quality by broadening our horizons not limiting them. The whole wild arguments of “well male lobsters assert dominance…”. Lobsters or whatever animal a particular someone who I won’t name tries to parallel us with, they don’t reason and think in any remote sense the same way as humans. It’s silly to try and take some biological aspect of our species or other species and draw a conclusion about how we should use the thing that makes humans, human.

      But that is just my hot take on this.

    • whats_a_refoogee@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      Ah yes. Let’s blame men for men’s problems. That should fix everything.

      This shit is the major contributor to the problem. A woman expresses and embraces femininity? “You go girl!”. A man expresses and embraces masculinity? “You are broken and you are the problem of our society, and everything bad that happens to you is also your fault”.

      And don’t give me this “Toxic masculinity is totally not just masculinity”. Almost every masculine trait has been called “toxic masculinity”. You might have your specific definition for what it means, but so does everyone else and together you all cover pretty much every facet of masculinity.

      • Echinoderm@aussie.zone
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        1 year ago

        Out of interest, what are some masculine traits that you feel are being rejected by society?

    • SwingingKoala@discuss.tchncs.de
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      1 year ago

      toxic masculinity

      Ah yes, let’s use a gendered term to refer to behavior that’s not ok in either gender, because calling the general term for male attributes toxic will make young men feel welcome. Yes, I’m aware what “toxic masculinity” refers to.

      • Ilandar@aussie.zone
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        1 year ago

        If you know what it refers to then why complain? Why pretend this is some big attack on masculinity as a whole when it’s obviously not? Toxic is an adjective, it is used to separate the bad stereotypical attributes of masculinity from the good. No one is suggesting these behaviours can only exist in men and I don’t know why you’re so offended by the use of gendered words when we are specifically talking about problems associated with one gender. Enough with the manufactured outrage, engage in good faith for once.

        • Neato@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          I’ve seen this from men recently here. They are attacking words like “feminism” and “toxic masculinity” with crap like this. It’s because they know they have no real arguments against them that they go for ad hominem attacks. They hate the word “feminism” because they’d rather have equality for “all” and imply feminism is equality for women only. Now this dude is attacking “toxic masculinity” because “women can be toxic, too” apparently. As if it wasn’t coined because the predominance was found in men and was trying to call attention to issues men face. It’s just a new tact in misogyny.

          • Ilandar@aussie.zone
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            1 year ago

            You’re right, it is a common tactic from the right to just immediately present any given social issue as an “attack on X”. But I also think instantly lumping people into that group isn’t always helpful either, which is why I asked for that person to chill with the hysteria and actually elaborate on their point. Unfortunately they are clearly intent on divisiveness and meaningless point scoring, so at that point you can hardly blame us for assuming the worst of their intentions.

        • SwingingKoala@discuss.tchncs.de
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          1 year ago

          If you know what it refers to then why complain?

          Did you even read the headline for this post?

          Why are so many boys and men feeling alone and in the cold?

          Which relevance does my understanding have to the understanding of a 12 year old boy?

          • Ilandar@aussie.zone
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            1 year ago

            Rather than make snarky, half-arsed replies why not take the time to articulate why you think “toxic masculinity” is such a problematic term? Why not engage in good faith with other people instead of instantly trying to turn this into yet another polarised yawnfest argument?

            • SwingingKoala@discuss.tchncs.de
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              1 year ago

              why not take the time to articulate why you think “toxic masculinity” is such a problematic term?

              I did in my first reply:

              a gendered term to refer to behavior that’s not ok in either gender

              snarky, half-arsed replies

              Projecting much?

              • Ilandar@aussie.zone
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                1 year ago

                Opening with “ah yes” followed immediately by sarcasm is snarky. And yes, 13 words is a pretty half-arsed attempt. I think you can do better.

              • IHeartBadCode@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                I did in my first reply

                Look I get the knee jerk on hearing male. “Oh we’re talking about masculinity, that’s an attack on me.” But the topic at hand is masculinity.

                Why are so many boys and men feeling alone and in the cold?

                Yes, toxic behaviors exists in both mainstream genders. Shallow ass women who play on male insecurities is a thing. BUT that’s not the topic here. Like, you shoving the whole “but the other side” thing really comes like someone walking into a hospital being outraged they aren’t going to do a quick dental clean while you’re there. You’re in the wrong place. There is such a place to go to, but it ain’t here.

                I mean nothing but love for ya, but the knee jerk comes off a bit hard. Like we can have that discussion, but honest, I don’t think this is the thread for it. It feels like it detracts from introspecting by way of blaming the other team. I’m not downvoting you, I get where you’re coming from. But I just feel it’s distraction.

                And that is my opinion on the matter and nothing more.

                • SwingingKoala@discuss.tchncs.de
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                  1 year ago

                  you shoving the whole “but the other side”

                  You entirely miss the important point here. It’s not about “muh other side”. It’s about sending young boys the message “toxic masculinity” over and over while they grow up and are trying to explore what masculinity means to them. Sure, if you give them a seminar on what “toxic masculinity” is supposed to mean every time you use the term, some of them might understand what you’re trying to say, but that’s not what’s happening. And every time a young boy questions the term in confusion he will be attacked “but the other side” yadda is not valid like you just did to me.

                  • IHeartBadCode@kbin.social
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                    1 year ago

                    It’s about sending young boys the message “toxic masculinity” over and over while they grow up and are trying to explore what masculinity means to them

                    Is that what you think the point of the discussion here is? What you’re saying is valid but that’s not this setting. I think that’s the aspect that might be getting lost with what I’m saying. I’m not discounting what your saying, what I’m indicating is that “your argument, completely valid in general. But are we not speaking specifically of this thread?”

                    It’s one of those things of, do you want to speak in general or in specific terms? In general yeah, we cannot just toss the term toxic masculinity all over the place with zero context. That’s just going to confuse people. BUT…

                    Men need feminism too. Patriarchy and toxic masculinity harm both men and women in different ways

                    The starting of this thread is examining a specific topic among the many and it feels like you want to interject a side topic for fear that someone here might get confused about the specifics of “toxic masculinity” and what the background of that is. We’re adults here and I think it’s safe to look at what the original comment was getting at without diving head first into what (to me and that may be different for you so I acknowledge that) feels like splitting hairs.

                    And every time a young boy questions the term in confusion he will be attacked “but the other side” yadda is not valid like you just did to me

                    Well. Are you a young boy? Are you confused about the term? And that’s the crux of what I am putting forward. And it isn’t in honesty an attack on you or at least wasn’t meant to be. We can talk “in general” about a hypothetical young boy, or we can be “specific” and address what you are and are not confused by. But we ought to avoid strafing between the two loosely because that’s going to be distracting in best light.

                    So I hope you understand when you have:

                    And every time a young boy questions the term in confusion he will be attacked “but the other side” yadda

                    and:

                    is not valid like you just did to me

                    Is taking the context of that first statement and attempting to apply it to the context of the second statement where the context of these two things are different altogether. “But the other side” yadda is dismissive in the first context and pointing out distraction in the second. We can use similar sounding statements in varied context to convey different ideas. Just like the statement “we need to go deeper” can have various meaning between the background of being on an oil derrick and being a gynecologist. Context really matters.

      • flathead@quex.cc
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        1 year ago

        to be fair, the article specifically references “toxic males” and is focused on the challenges for young men in particular. What seems obviously lacking in the story is any reference to the diminished economic potential that all young people face. 30 years ago education and housing were somewhat reasonably priced and and generally available to all. Economic stress is a huge factor and immediate source of stress and anxiety that is completely ignored in the article. How is one supposed to feel ‘cocky’ while struggling to keep their head above water financially?

      • Neato@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Men get so bent out of shape whenever they even could be considered at fault for anything.

        Meanwhile the word hysteria exists…

        • CTdummy@artemis.camp
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          1 year ago

          No, people get bent out of shape because it’s a gendered, sexist term. End of story. Just like man-splaining. You can discuss male specific toxicity and men being condescending without using terms that very clearly are divisive and prejudicial.

          If you use the terms while pretending to be progressive or for equality then you’re a liar and a hypocrite. Hope that helps.

        • SwingingKoala@discuss.tchncs.de
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          1 year ago

          Not sure what you’re trying to say. That the word hysteria exists is bad… because it assigned a certain behavior/emotion to women? And because of that assigning a certain behavior/emotion to men is something we should welcome?

          • Neato@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            You should look up the origin then. Because your clearly concern trolling at this point.

            • SwingingKoala@discuss.tchncs.de
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              1 year ago

              Ah yes, jump to ad hominem immediately when you don’t have anything productive to say. Hysteria, can you do something constructing and give me a meaning that contradicts wikipedia?

              • Neato@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                The first fucking paragraph is the point. Literally everyone knows this.

                And it’s not an ad hominem when the position I’m criticizing and the term mean the same thing. Your bigotry is appallingly obvious. Shoo.

                • SwingingKoala@discuss.tchncs.de
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                  1 year ago

                  I don’t see how what I wrote contradicts the first paragraph, I paraphrased the first sentence. Anyway, so your point really is “a word exists that shows women had it bad, so it’s ok if I use a word now that treats boys and young men badly”

      • Taleya@aussie.zone
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        1 year ago

        Well, yeah mate

        ‘Boys don’t cry strong silent type don’t show any emotion beyond anger’ is not a societal pressure applied to women.

        It is however, very much a toxic version of perceived masculinity